Doubt there'd be fighting, Germans don' care enoughDanes would fight against Germans. If Denmark would remain part of Germany to 1910's what I suspect, there might be british supported Danish revolt.
Doubt there'd be fighting, Germans don' care enoughDanes would fight against Germans. If Denmark would remain part of Germany to 1910's what I suspect, there might be british supported Danish revolt.
In this scenario wouldn't Denmark be a part of the North German Confederation in 1864..?
I find it interesting that people assume that Denmark joining the german Confederation means that Denmark becomes part of Germany. There were several parts of the German confederation that never became part of Germany, like Austria, Lichtenstein, Luxemburg and (Dutch) Limburg. I find it likely that if Denmark joins the german confederation, it will decided to opt out of joining the German Empire and probably even the north German Confederation. The Danish king might not want to lose Schleswick-Holstein, but I doubt he would want to give up sovereignty for it. And I am not certain German nationalists want to include Denmark.There was no North German Confederation in 1864. It was set up in 1867 following Prussia's defeat of Austria.
What Christian offered to join was the old German Confederation, which included Austria.
I find it interesting that people assume that Denmark joining the german Confederation means that Denmark becomes part of Germany. There were several parts of the German confederation that never became part of Germany, like Austria, Lichtenstein, Luxemburg and (Dutch) Limburg. I find it likely that if Denmark joins the german confederation, it will decided to opt out of joining the German Empire and probably even the north German Confederation. The Danish king might not want to lose Schleswick-Holstein, but I doubt he would want to give up sovereignty for it. And I am not certain German nationalists want to include Denmark.
And if Denmark joins the GC in order to keep S/H, there will be no Treaty of Gastein and no division of S/H with Austria. This deprives Bismarck of his pretext for war with Austria two years later. Any thoughts on what other excuse, if any, he can find?
Well I suggest the peace treaty on it own could serve as pretext, as the Austrians supported the Augustenburg claim to the duchies, while here Prussia have thrown their support behind the Glücksburgers. Bismarck could use this to provoke a war, the result would also be that Denmark took part in the war as a Prussian ally.
Austria didn't support the Augustenburgs initially. After all, she went along with Gastein. She did start favouring them later as it sank in that Holstein was no use to her. If a peace has been made leaving S/H to Christian IX, she wd have no particular reason to bring the Augustenburgs back into the picture. Their strongest supporters were German liberals, whom neither Bismarck nor Franz Josef particularly liked.
Why Germany would had wanted Denmark? Danes don't even speak German. This just could cause more problems as it would be worth of that. Even Hitler didn't plan annexation of Denmark and Bismarck was much saner than Hitler.
Honestly I'm sure Bismarck can place some paragraph in the treaty, which can be used to create a later crisis, which enable a conflict with Austria and bring Denmark in on Prussian side. Bismarck was a excellent player of that game.
Who's "they"? Prussia and Austria fought the war jointly, and joining the GC would not have been equated with Prussian domination. And until 1866 Prussia was seen as the weakest of the great powers.
It seems to me that Denmark is a little too culturally distinct from Germany for this to work, but if it does, maybe Germany can take advantage of Danish possessions in Greenland and the Caribbean as a jumping-off point to take colonies from France?
POD - Bismarck is a romantic pan-germanic nationalist.
He accepts the Danish King's plea to join the German confederation rather than lose the Duchy of Holstein. He words his acceptance in such a way that it's clear that they are coming into the confederation as a Prussian vassal in all but name.
The Austrians violently object. They just fought a war alongside the Prussians to liberate Holstein from Danish dominion! What perfidious Prussian nonsense is this? Vienna is the leader of the German nation, not Berlin. Early Austro-Prussian war kicks off.
But the Austrians hadn't been expecting this, while the treacherous Prussians had planned for it, and the Austrians are caught with their pants down. Despite the early date, Prussia still wins and they put down any Danish unrest.
Austria comes back for round two in 1870 to back up the French, but the Prussians had the Russians in their back pocket. Prussian-Russo alliance stomps.
Russians get Galicia. Franz Joseph abdicates and Hapsburg Kingdom of Austria & Bohemia joins Germany under his son Rudolf. Karl Ludwig gets the Kingdom of Hungary and Croatia. Germany annexes Luxembourg.
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Yeah, but by this point it's 2nd rate. Not really a threat to Britain. This Germany is still primarily a land power with both France and Italian holding irredentist claims and Russia looming large to the East.Denmark generally has a decent Navy? AM I right? Of course, the British could and would most likely just come over and shoot the crap out of said navy.
I mean, they seem to have a habit of doing that.
Denmark generally has a decent Navy? AM I right? Of course, the British could and would most likely just come over and shoot the crap out of said navy.
I mean, they seem to have a habit of doing that.
Why would Denmark's colonies necessarily be within the confederation? Perhaps they remain under Danish sovereignty, but outside of the confederation?
I'm aware that the Kaiserreich had a confederal character In that vein though, there was a long history in the HRE and the German Confederation of component states possessing or being otherwise in union with areas outside of the confederation.Perhaps not in the initial phase as part of the German Confederation. But the point of the POD I posited is that the Austrians are waging war on Prussia and Denmark in 1864 and thus Denmark ends up a part of the North German Confederation, and then a part of Greater Germany.
The Kaiserreich was not a unitary state like France. It was basically a permanent customs unions & military alliance under the leadership of Prussia. The Kingdoms within it were granted substantial autonomy. That being said, surely these colonies would be covered by both the custom union and military alliance.
How would this be anything but a bureaucratic fiction in this case? Those previous confederations were far looser. A third party attacking these colonies would be viewed as an attack on the empire as a whole. And surely people and goods will be able to move freely between the colonies and Dennmark and from there to the rest of the Empire. Otherwise how does Denmark or Germany benifit from the inclusion of it?I'm aware that the Kaiserreich had a confederal character In that vein though, there was a long history in the HRE and the German Confederation of component states possessing or being otherwise in union with areas outside of the confederation.
The EU is a much tighter union in some ways, and several of its members control lands outside of the Union.How would this be anything but a bureaucratic fiction in this case? Those previous confederations were far looser. A third party attacking these colonies would be viewed as an attack on the empire as a whole. And surely people and goods will be able to move freely between the colonies and Dennmark and from there to the reat of the Empire. Otherwise how does Denmark or Germany benifit from the inclusion of it?