Denmark and Germany: 1864

In this scenario wouldn't Denmark be a part of the North German Confederation in 1864..?


There was no North German Confederation in 1864. It was set up in 1867 following Prussia's defeat of Austria.

What Christian offered to join was the old German Confederation, which included Austria.
 
There was no North German Confederation in 1864. It was set up in 1867 following Prussia's defeat of Austria.

What Christian offered to join was the old German Confederation, which included Austria.
I find it interesting that people assume that Denmark joining the german Confederation means that Denmark becomes part of Germany. There were several parts of the German confederation that never became part of Germany, like Austria, Lichtenstein, Luxemburg and (Dutch) Limburg. I find it likely that if Denmark joins the german confederation, it will decided to opt out of joining the German Empire and probably even the north German Confederation. The Danish king might not want to lose Schleswick-Holstein, but I doubt he would want to give up sovereignty for it. And I am not certain German nationalists want to include Denmark.
 
I find it interesting that people assume that Denmark joining the german Confederation means that Denmark becomes part of Germany. There were several parts of the German confederation that never became part of Germany, like Austria, Lichtenstein, Luxemburg and (Dutch) Limburg. I find it likely that if Denmark joins the german confederation, it will decided to opt out of joining the German Empire and probably even the north German Confederation. The Danish king might not want to lose Schleswick-Holstein, but I doubt he would want to give up sovereignty for it. And I am not certain German nationalists want to include Denmark.

And if Denmark joins the GC in order to keep S/H, there will be no Treaty of Gastein and no division of S/H with Austria. This deprives Bismarck of his pretext for war with Austria two years later. Any thoughts on what other excuse, if any, he can find?
 
And if Denmark joins the GC in order to keep S/H, there will be no Treaty of Gastein and no division of S/H with Austria. This deprives Bismarck of his pretext for war with Austria two years later. Any thoughts on what other excuse, if any, he can find?

Well I suggest the peace treaty on it own could serve as pretext, as the Austrians supported the Augustenburg claim to the duchies, while here Prussia have thrown their support behind the Glücksburgers. Bismarck could use this to provoke a war, the result would also be that Denmark took part in the war as a Prussian ally.
 
Well I suggest the peace treaty on it own could serve as pretext, as the Austrians supported the Augustenburg claim to the duchies, while here Prussia have thrown their support behind the Glücksburgers. Bismarck could use this to provoke a war, the result would also be that Denmark took part in the war as a Prussian ally.

Austria didn't support the Augustenburgs initially. After all, she went along with Gastein. She did start favouring them later as it sank in that Holstein was no use to her. If a peace has been made leaving S/H to Christian IX, she wd have no particular reason to bring the Augustenburgs back into the picture. Their strongest supporters were German liberals, whom neither Bismarck nor Franz Josef particularly liked.
 
Austria didn't support the Augustenburgs initially. After all, she went along with Gastein. She did start favouring them later as it sank in that Holstein was no use to her. If a peace has been made leaving S/H to Christian IX, she wd have no particular reason to bring the Augustenburgs back into the picture. Their strongest supporters were German liberals, whom neither Bismarck nor Franz Josef particularly liked.

Honestly I'm sure Bismarck can place some paragraph in the treaty, which can be used to create a later crisis, which enable a conflict with Austria and bring Denmark in on Prussian side. Bismarck was a excellent player of that game.
 
Why Germany would had wanted Denmark? Danes don't even speak German. This just could cause more problems as it would be worth of that. Even Hitler didn't plan annexation of Denmark and Bismarck was much saner than Hitler.

Thats incorrect, Hitler planned on annexing all of Scandinavia (bar Finland) as a part of the Greater Germanic Reich. Its one of the reasons they never established a Collaborationist government there just like in Norway.
 
Honestly I'm sure Bismarck can place some paragraph in the treaty, which can be used to create a later crisis, which enable a conflict with Austria and bring Denmark in on Prussian side. Bismarck was a excellent player of that game.

I think you're giving him a bit too much credit. I acknowledge that Bismarck was pretty talented, but he was really more of an opportunist than someone who created convoluted plans ahead of time and had everything fall perfectly into place, which is how he liked to portray himself.
 
Who's "they"? Prussia and Austria fought the war jointly, and joining the GC would not have been equated with Prussian domination. And until 1866 Prussia was seen as the weakest of the great powers.

POD - Bismarck is a romantic pan-germanic nationalist.

He accepts the Danish King's plea to join the German confederation rather than lose the Duchy of Holstein. He words his acceptance in such a way that it's clear that they are coming into the confederation as a Prussian vassal in all but name.

The Austrians violently object. They just fought a war alongside the Prussians to liberate Holstein from Danish dominion! What perfidious Prussian nonsense is this? Vienna is the leader of the German nation, not Berlin. Early Austro-Prussian war kicks off.

But the Austrians hadn't been expecting this, while the treacherous Prussians had planned for it, and the Austrians are caught with their pants down. Despite the early date, Prussia still wins and they put down any Danish unrest.

Austria comes back for round two in 1870 to back up the French, but the Prussians had the Russians and Italians in their back pocket. Prussian-Russo alliance stomps.

Russians get Galicia. Franz Joseph abdicates and Hapsburg Kingdom of Austria & Bohemia joins Germany under his son Rudolf. His younger brother Karl Ludwig gets the Kingdom of Hungary and Croatia. Germany annexes Luxembourg. Italy annexes Venetia and the Papal States.

 
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It seems to me that Denmark is a little too culturally distinct from Germany for this to work, but if it does, maybe Germany can take advantage of Danish possessions in Greenland and the Caribbean as a jumping-off point to take colonies from France?

By this point, West Indian colonies are not that valuable anymore. Note that the Danes simply sold theirs to the USA. I don’t really see why Germany would bother.
 
POD - Bismarck is a romantic pan-germanic nationalist.

He accepts the Danish King's plea to join the German confederation rather than lose the Duchy of Holstein. He words his acceptance in such a way that it's clear that they are coming into the confederation as a Prussian vassal in all but name.

The Austrians violently object. They just fought a war alongside the Prussians to liberate Holstein from Danish dominion! What perfidious Prussian nonsense is this? Vienna is the leader of the German nation, not Berlin. Early Austro-Prussian war kicks off.

But the Austrians hadn't been expecting this, while the treacherous Prussians had planned for it, and the Austrians are caught with their pants down. Despite the early date, Prussia still wins and they put down any Danish unrest.

Austria comes back for round two in 1870 to back up the French, but the Prussians had the Russians in their back pocket. Prussian-Russo alliance stomps.

Russians get Galicia. Franz Joseph abdicates and Hapsburg Kingdom of Austria & Bohemia joins Germany under his son Rudolf. Karl Ludwig gets the Kingdom of Hungary and Croatia. Germany annexes Luxembourg.



Denmark generally has a decent Navy? AM I right? Of course, the British could and would most likely just come over and shoot the crap out of said navy.

I mean, they seem to have a habit of doing that.
 
Denmark generally has a decent Navy? AM I right? Of course, the British could and would most likely just come over and shoot the crap out of said navy.

I mean, they seem to have a habit of doing that.
Yeah, but by this point it's 2nd rate. Not really a threat to Britain. This Germany is still primarily a land power with both France and Italian holding irredentist claims and Russia looming large to the East.
 
Denmark generally has a decent Navy? AM I right? Of course, the British could and would most likely just come over and shoot the crap out of said navy.

I mean, they seem to have a habit of doing that.

Only when we feared it joining forces with an enemy power which (unlike the German Confederation) also had a sizeable navy.

We "Copenhagened" the French fleet in 1940 for somewhat similar reasons.
 
Why would Denmark's colonies necessarily be within the confederation? Perhaps they remain under Danish sovereignty, but outside of the confederation?
 
Why would Denmark's colonies necessarily be within the confederation? Perhaps they remain under Danish sovereignty, but outside of the confederation?

Perhaps not in the initial phase as part of the German Confederation. But the point of the POD I posited is that the Austrians are waging war on Prussia and Denmark in 1864 and thus Denmark ends up a part of the North German Confederation, and then a part of Greater Germany.

The Kaiserreich was not a unitary state like France. It was basically a permanent customs unions & military alliance under the leadership of Prussia. The Kingdoms within it were granted substantial autonomy. That being said, surely these colonies would be covered by both the custom union and military alliance.
 
Perhaps not in the initial phase as part of the German Confederation. But the point of the POD I posited is that the Austrians are waging war on Prussia and Denmark in 1864 and thus Denmark ends up a part of the North German Confederation, and then a part of Greater Germany.

The Kaiserreich was not a unitary state like France. It was basically a permanent customs unions & military alliance under the leadership of Prussia. The Kingdoms within it were granted substantial autonomy. That being said, surely these colonies would be covered by both the custom union and military alliance.
I'm aware that the Kaiserreich had a confederal character In that vein though, there was a long history in the HRE and the German Confederation of component states possessing or being otherwise in union with areas outside of the confederation.
 
I'm aware that the Kaiserreich had a confederal character In that vein though, there was a long history in the HRE and the German Confederation of component states possessing or being otherwise in union with areas outside of the confederation.
How would this be anything but a bureaucratic fiction in this case? Those previous confederations were far looser. A third party attacking these colonies would be viewed as an attack on the empire as a whole. And surely people and goods will be able to move freely between the colonies and Dennmark and from there to the rest of the Empire. Otherwise how does Denmark or Germany benifit from the inclusion of it?
 
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How would this be anything but a bureaucratic fiction in this case? Those previous confederations were far looser. A third party attacking these colonies would be viewed as an attack on the empire as a whole. And surely people and goods will be able to move freely between the colonies and Dennmark and from there to the reat of the Empire. Otherwise how does Denmark or Germany benifit from the inclusion of it?
The EU is a much tighter union in some ways, and several of its members control lands outside of the Union.
 
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