Denmark and Germany: 1864

Denmark's king offered to join proto-Germany in early 1864 in exchange for the areas of Schlesweig still being debated. In OTL Bismarck said no, but suppose he had not or been overruled? Whay would be the effects of Denmark as part of Germany in 1864 either as a kingdom akin to Bavaria with its own traditions et al or if only as part of the Zollverein before the German Empire of OTL came to be?
 
Denmark's king offered to join proto-Germany in early 1864 in exchange for the areas of Schlesweig still being debated. In OTL Bismarck said no, but suppose he had not or been overruled? Whay would be the effects of Denmark as part of Germany in 1864 either as a kingdom akin to Bavaria with its own traditions et al or if only as part of the Zollverein before the German Empire of OTL came to be?
It seems to me that Denmark is a little too culturally distinct from Germany for this to work, but if it does, maybe Germany can take advantage of Danish possessions in Greenland and the Caribbean as a jumping-off point to take colonies from France?
 
The Danish king may have wanted to do this to hold onto Holstein but I don' think either the Germans or the danes themselves were interested
 
Why Germany would had wanted Denmark? Danes don't even speak German. This just could cause more problems as it would be worth of that. Even Hitler didn't plan annexation of Denmark and Bismarck was much saner than Hitler.
 
Last edited:
Bismarck had some very sound reasons to deny, both geopolitical and internally ... UK would very quickly stop being Prussia's ally if they suddenly got all the coastland of Denmark (with its good shipyards), and the distant settlements in Faraoes, Iceland and Greenland, and the colonies in West Indies, not that UK would go to bed with France right away, but they would certainly try to restrict Prussian power, since it would much faster be obvious that Prussia is the strongest continental power (and UK have a 'tradition' of allying the second strongest, trying to keep the strongest down)

Internally, as touched upon, Denmark is too culturally distinct when compared to the rest of the Germanic territories since they speak a distinctly different (non-mutually intelligible) language,doesn't have a strong history of being part of HRE (just some 40'ish years just before the turn of the millenium), which, as dead as it was, still was the guideline for which areas were German, and a distinct concern that it would be a hotbed for rebels, both due to the distinct otherness (and the fact that Denmark was 'somewhat democratic' and the population weren't in on the deal), and due to the fact that it would be painfully easy for hostile nations to ship in support
 
Bismarck had some very sound reasons to deny, both geopolitical and internally ... UK would very quickly stop being Prussia's ally if they suddenly got all the coastland of Denmark (with its good shipyards), and the distant settlements in Faraoes, Iceland and Greenland, and the colonies in West Indies, not that UK would go to bed with France right away, but they would certainly try to restrict Prussian power, since it would much faster be obvious that Prussia is the strongest continental power (and UK have a 'tradition' of allying the second strongest, trying to keep the strongest down)


Why? Prussia had no navy and was no threat to Britain. Nor was Prussia seen by anyone as the "strongest continental power" pre-1871.

Bismarck's objection would have been twofold. Firstly, If Christian IX became a member of the German Confederation, there would be no grounds for taking Schleswig-Holstein away from him. Secondly, since Denmark would not wish to be dominated by her Prussian neighbour (esp if the latter still had designs on S-H), in the conflict with Austria, which Bismarck already anticipated, she would undoubtedly take the Austrian side. Denmark and Hanover in concert would present Prussia with a formidable north-western front in 1866.
 
Why? Prussia had no navy and was no threat to Britain. Nor was Prussia seen by anyone as the "strongest continental power" pre-1871.

Denmark had a strong naval tradition (it was the strongest second tier, behind UK, France, Spain, Portugal and Netherlands), and naval knowhow, and if they managed to 'conquer' Denmark they would be considered the strongest continental power earlier
 
There was a lot of good reasons for why no one wanted this. But let's look into how we can change Bismarck opinion on this issue. Well I think Bismarck had a plan in 1864 and 1866, through not one which included 1870. So how do we change the plan.

Well Bismarck here want Prussia to have a navy and a colonial empire. The easiest way to get the former is to integrate the Danes into the North German Confederation, and then use them to set up the colonial empire.

With this we have given Bismarck the necessary motivation. So he agree a deal for Denmark becoming part of the German Confederation. This won't create a schism with the British, in fact both Russia and UK will see this as a great compromise. But now he lack a excuse for the war with Austria. Here the solution could be to use this compromise and the recognisation of Christian IX as duke of Schleswig-Holstein as a way to start a conflict with Austria. It will be harder, but it will also ensure that UK and Russia doesn't support the Austrians (no danger of that, but better safe than sorry). It also ensure the Danish government stay loyal. Denmark then joins the NGC. Now we likely see some British raised eyebrows, but honestly no more than that.

Next the French decides to declare war over a telegram. The results are the same as OTL except that New Caledonia, Senegal, French Indochina and Reunion end up German.

This is thee basic how it could happen.
 
With Denmark as part of the North German Confederation, Berlin gains outposts and colonies from Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands to the Nicobar Islands, , and the West Indies (not to mention recently sold Tharangambadi and Gold Coast installatioms at modern Ghana as a possible trade or co cession later). Naval expertise would be valuable as would the agricultural productivity.

On the flip side it may cause the South Germans to consolidate as a different polity entirely, one that might be able to take Pfalz and Luxembourg to become a more traditional and pro-Austrian block of German states perhaps later united under a Wittselbach king? Though unlikely i wonder if maybe Therese [born 1850] marries Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria [born 1858] to potentially allow a very different future for Austria and Europe? Their children would likely be brilliant, crazy, and/or crazy brilliant...
 
With Denmark as part of the North German Confederation, Berlin gains outposts and colonies from Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands to the Nicobar Islands, , and the West Indies (not to mention recently sold Tharangambadi and Gold Coast installatioms at modern Ghana as a possible trade or co cession later). Naval expertise would be valuable as would the agricultural productivity.

On the flip side it may cause the South Germans to consolidate as a different polity entirely, one that might be able to take Pfalz and Luxembourg to become a more traditional and pro-Austrian block of German states perhaps later united under a Wittselbach king? Though unlikely i wonder if maybe Therese [born 1850] marries Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria [born 1858] to potentially allow a very different future for Austria and Europe? Their children would likely be brilliant, crazy, and/or crazy brilliant...

The south German states would still unite with NGC in our Franco-Prussian War resulting in OTL Germany, Denmark would have little influence on this. The interesting thing would be that under the German Empire, we would likely see the South German states reach out to Denmark as cooperation partner in German politics, moreso because how Danish politics would look.

In Denmark we would likely see governments being lead by a coalition of Danish and German conservatives, while the liberal opposition would be split in a Danish and German nationalist groups, while transnational Social Democrats slowly grew in size.
 
So let's say Denmark becomes a part of the NGC and that history continues as OTL (minimal butterflies) would Germany with the Danish inherit naval tradition, habours etc. be able to match the British navy compared to OTL WW I?
 
Denmark had a strong naval tradition (it was the strongest second tier, behind UK, France, Spain, Portugal and Netherlands), and naval knowhow, and if they managed to 'conquer' Denmark they would be considered the strongest continental power earlier

Who's "they"? Prussia and Austria fought the war jointly, and joining the GC would not have been equated with Prussian domination. And until 1866 Prussia was seen as the weakest of the great powers.
 
So let's say Denmark becomes a part of the NGC and that history continues as OTL (minimal butterflies) would Germany with the Danish inherit naval tradition, habours etc. be able to match the British navy compared to OTL WW I?

No not really, but also think that Bismarck changed focus on a colonial empire would fundamental change German foreign policy. We would likely see the Danish armed forced being dominated by the fleet and marine soldiers, with the rest focusing on defense. Danish marines will likely be used all around the world, when Germany takes a new territory (German soldier and colonial troops will be used to gain control inland). The navy will likely pretty much use Danish as daily command language, but German will be understood by everyone. But this earlier and bigger fleet, with a greater focus on long range. This means that it will be harder to create the British panick over the German fleet, even through it's significant stronger. WWI can still happen, but UK likely start with a more firendly relationsship with Germany. Another element without a independent Denmark as model, Norway may decides to continue in union with Sweden.

As for Denmark, we will see a stronger early industrialisation with even greater shipbuilding, we will likely see a even larger influx of Germans, Swedes and Poles to Copenhagen, but instead of building OTL land fortification, they will end up in the industry.
 
Denmark's king offered to join proto-Germany in early 1864 in exchange for the areas of Schlesweig still being debated. In OTL Bismarck said no, but suppose he had not or been overruled? Whay would be the effects of Denmark as part of Germany in 1864 either as a kingdom akin to Bavaria with its own traditions et al or if only as part of the Zollverein before the German Empire of OTL came to be?
1864 was an age of nationalism and liberalism, Dynastic and Monarchic chess plays across lingual and ethnic Linea weren't so easy anymore. The king was German Augustenburger, the Danish people found him suspicious and would never accepted that.
 
1864 was an age of nationalism and liberalism, Dynastic and Monarchic chess plays across lingual and ethnic Linea weren't so easy anymore. The king was German Augustenburger, the Danish people found him suspicious and would never accepted that.

This was after the defeat, Denmark would accept it, because it would mean not losing Schleswig.
 
With Denmark as part of the North German Confederation, Berlin gains outposts and colonies from Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands to the Nicobar Islands, , and the West Indies (not to mention recently sold Tharangambadi and Gold Coast installatioms at modern Ghana as a possible trade or co cession later). Naval expertise would be valuable as would the agricultural productivity.



Would there ever be a North German Confederation?

If Denmark takes the Austrian side in 1866 then Prussia will need to end considerably more force tot he northwest - perhaps enough to tip the balance in Austria's favour.
 
Would there ever be a North German Confederation?

If Denmark takes the Austrian side in 1866 then Prussia will need to end considerably more force tot he northwest - perhaps enough to tip the balance in Austria's favour.

In this scenario wouldn't Denmark be a part of the North German Confederation in 1864..?
 
So let's say Denmark becomes a part of the NGC and that history continues as OTL (minimal butterflies) would Germany with the Danish inherit naval tradition, habours etc. be able to match the British navy compared to OTL WW I?

Danes would fight against Germans. If Denmark would remain part of Germany to 1910's what I suspect, there might be british supported Danish revolt.
 
Top