Demographics of Latvia and Estonia in 2017 in the event of a German WWI victory?

NoMommsen

Donor
Who exactly said anything about political autonomy here, though?
History

Bohemia and Moravia have been part of "german sphere of influence", esp. cultural, for centuries, part of any kind of german dominated empires but always with an at least domestic kind of autonomy.
A victorious German Empire, probably including "german language) Austria proper would not change that, as it eases a lot having a working and somewhat accepted administrative body there. However it would most likely bee sucked into the german economic - as part of it, what would be economical much more profitable in the middle and longer term, than 'just' plundering.

Germanization ... would go on as it went on the last centuries : slowly but steadily with slow expansion of the already german speaking population regions, maybe supported by a bit more 'favorable' domestic politic to these parts, but not much more. The german language - already prior to WW I in a way 'dominating', being spoken, written and read by almost every Czech - would help that.
Given (enough) time the Czechs might become something like the Sorbs in Germany, though with considerable larger numbers.



EDIT : another 'lesson of history' regarding Czechia, that could play a role in NOT directly annexing it, letting it some of its autonomy

A try to do so - in a way - 'caused' or at least opened up th Thirty Years War
the "Window Fall or Prague" (Prager Fenstersturz)
 
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Deleted member 94680

Who exactly said anything about political autonomy here, though?

You did.

...that Czechia would have been more Germanizable had Austria-Hungary still imploded after the end of WWI after a long war and a Central Powers victory and had Germany annexed both German Austria and the Sudetenland afterwards?

If there's no A-H and Germany has taken Austria and the Sudetenland, then Czechia must be independent and autonomous. People were replying to your original comment.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
You did.



If there's no A-H and Germany has taken Austria and the Sudetenland, then Czechia must be independent and autonomous. People were replying to your original comment.
I meant something more along the lines of Czechia being under German occupation but not annexed to Germany (yet, at least), though.
 

Deleted member 94680

I meant something more along the lines of Czechia being under German occupation but not annexed to Germany (yet, at least), though.

Then the comments on Germanisation make more sense. It's possible, in a world where the CP has won, but in that world I don't see A-H collapsing (or staying collapsed) to be honest. If the situation is so bad that Austria is now part of Germany (by extension the Hapsburgs have either gone or are downgraded to Kings) then why would Czechia be annexed or occupied? It would be adding a large, well educated, ethnically solid, religiously unified minority to the German Empire - look how that's turned out for the Austrians.
 
Then the comments on Germanisation make more sense. It's possible, in a world where the CP has won, but in that world I don't see A-H collapsing (or staying collapsed) to be honest. If the situation is so bad that Austria is now part of Germany (by extension the Hapsburgs have either gone or are downgraded to Kings) then why would Czechia be annexed or occupied? It would be adding a large, well educated, ethnically solid, religiously unified minority to the German Empire - look how that's turned out for the Austrians.

^ What Stenz said.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Then the comments on Germanisation make more sense. It's possible, in a world where the CP has won, but in that world I don't see A-H collapsing (or staying collapsed) to be honest. If the situation is so bad that Austria is now part of Germany (by extension the Hapsburgs have either gone or are downgraded to Kings) then why would Czechia be annexed or occupied? It would be adding a large, well educated, ethnically solid, religiously unified minority to the German Empire - look how that's turned out for the Austrians.
They would do it because the Czechs have a lot of industry; indeed, they could try getting a lot of ethnic Germans to settle there before they actually annex it.
 
They would do it because the Czechs have a lot of industry; indeed, they could try getting a lot of ethnic Germans to settle there before they actually annex it.

Would this strategy be likely to work? Would contemporaries think it likely to work? Germanization had not produced significant positive results in Prussian Poland, frex.

This could happen, but it would require a lot of political repression.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Would this strategy be likely to work? Would contemporaries think it likely to work? Germanization had not produced significant positive results in Prussian Poland, frex.

This could happen, but it would require a lot of political repression.
Well, I was thinking of the Germans allowing the Czechs to keep their language, et cetera, but simply settling a lot of Germans there.

Also, wasn't Czechia much more industrialized than Posen was?
 
Well, I was thinking of the Germans allowing the Czechs to keep their language, et cetera, but simply settling a lot of Germans there.

Also, wasn't Czechia much more industrialized than Posen was?

Would Germans necessarily come in large numbers to Czechia? My understanding is that, although Bohemia-Moravia was quite industrialized, right to the end of the First World War it was a net exporter of labour. Czech immigrants formed a large and growing proportion of Vienna's population, for instance, and in Saxony there were some nationalists upset at Czech labour migrants. Relatively prosperous compared to its eastern neighbours though it might be, the Czech lands seem to have been at least not attractive enough to avoid significant Czech out-migration. Whether such a labour market could attract migrants from a richer country is open to question.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Would Germans necessarily come in large numbers to Czechia? My understanding is that, although Bohemia-Moravia was quite industrialized, right to the end of the First World War it was a net exporter of labour. Czech immigrants formed a large and growing proportion of Vienna's population, for instance, and in Saxony there were some nationalists upset at Czech labour migrants. Relatively prosperous compared to its eastern neighbours though it might be, the Czech lands seem to have been at least not attractive enough to avoid significant Czech out-migration. Whether such a labour market could attract migrants from a richer country is open to question.
Thanks for this information! :)

However, what about if Germany's government will heavily invest in Czechia for a couple of decades or so? After all, I would think that Czech standards of living would eventually equal German ones and that eventual suburbanization should eventually bring many Germans from Saxony, Silesia, Bavaria, and Austria/Vienna into Czechia.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Honestly, if I was the German government, I would first of all focus on Germanizing the area between Saxony and Prague as well as the Czech urban areas between Upper Silesia and Vienna.
 
Thanks for this information! :)

However, what about if Germany's government will heavily invest in Czechia for a couple of decades or so? After all, I would think that Czech standards of living would eventually equal German ones and that eventual suburbanization should eventually bring many Germans from Saxony, Silesia, Bavaria, and Austria/Vienna into Czechia.

Maybe? But the reverse would be true, too. The Czech presence in the Sudetenland had been growing, frex.

I suspect that the existence of Czechs as a distinctive ethnicity with its own language would work to discourage migration to the Czech lands. Prague might be between Dresden and Vienna, but the city and its people and its hinterland are not Germans. Similar factors may discourage immigration from elsewhere in Canada to Québec, for instance, notwithstanding broadly comparable living standards.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Maybe? But the reverse would be true, too. The Czech presence in the Sudetenland had been growing, frex.

It was growing in the pre-WWI era? If so, how much?

I suspect that the existence of Czechs as a distinctive ethnicity with its own language would work to discourage migration to the Czech lands. Prague might be between Dresden and Vienna, but the city and its people and its hinterland are not Germans. Similar factors may discourage immigration from elsewhere in Canada to Québec, for instance, notwithstanding broadly comparable living standards.

Isn't Quebec very autonomous within Canada, though? If so, wouldn't, say, Xinjiang be a better comparison for this?
 
It was growing in the pre-WWI era? If so, how much?

I don't have numbers. I just have anecdotes of Sudeten Germans being disturbed by the growing presence of Czechs who were insisting on being Czechs.

Isn't Quebec very autonomous within Canada, though? If so, wouldn't, say, Xinjiang be a better comparison for this?

In Xinjiang, though, there are economic resources--natural resources, manufacturing, et cetera--where Chinese migrants are useful. A perhaps better comparison might be with Tibet, where migration by Chinese has been limited and is often temporary.

The Czech lands are much like the Baltics in that their level of development, economic and social and otherwise, is not much below the level of Germany. There do not strike me as likely to be that many niches for German immigrants.

We're speculating wildly about what will happen when we've no idea what political arrangement there will be, I admit.
 
Would this strategy be likely to work? Would contemporaries think it likely to work? Germanization had not produced significant positive results in Prussian Poland, frex.

This could happen, but it would require a lot of political repression.

Well, a victorious Kaiserreich would be a junker state led by Hindenburg, radicalized by shooting strikers and fighting the Bolsheviks, so...

Would Germans necessarily come in large numbers to Czechia? My understanding is that, although Bohemia-Moravia was quite industrialized, right to the end of the First World War it was a net exporter of labour. Czech immigrants formed a large and growing proportion of Vienna's population, for instance, and in Saxony there were some nationalists upset at Czech labour migrants. Relatively prosperous compared to its eastern neighbours though it might be, the Czech lands seem to have been at least not attractive enough to avoid significant Czech out-migration. Whether such a labour market could attract migrants from a richer country is open to question.

Germany was an exporter of labor too, right? When did German migration to the USA cease?
 
Germany was an exporter of labor too, right? When did German migration to the USA cease?

Germany can still be a source of migrants even while it's also a destination. China right now, for instance, is just entering that stage now, Chinese leaving and people from around the world coming in.

The big German migration had ended by the beginning of the 20th century.

In a setting where German overseas migration is no longer possible ... But we need to know the details.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I don't have numbers. I just have anecdotes of Sudeten Germans being disturbed by the growing presence of Czechs who were insisting on being Czechs.

OK.

In Xinjiang, though, there are economic resources--natural resources, manufacturing, et cetera--where Chinese migrants are useful. A perhaps better comparison might be with Tibet, where migration by Chinese has been limited and is often temporary.

Perhaps you're right; however, what about the settlement of Russians in, say, the Caucasus? Would that be a good analogy for this?

The Czech lands are much like the Baltics in that their level of development, economic and social and otherwise, is not much below the level of Germany. There do not strike me as likely to be that many niches for German immigrants.

Yes, but one could likewise argue the reverse: Specifically that the high standard of living in these territories would encourage more, rather than less, Germans to settle there--specifically in urban and suburban areas there.

We're speculating wildly about what will happen when we've no idea what political arrangement there will be, I admit.

Yes; correct! :)
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Germany can still be a source of migrants even while it's also a destination. China right now, for instance, is just entering that stage now, Chinese leaving and people from around the world coming in.

The big German migration had ended by the beginning of the 20th century.

In a setting where German overseas migration is no longer possible ... But we need to know the details.
Let's say that Czechia is a German protectorate in this TL with the hope of eventually outright annexing Czechia into the German Reich.
 
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