Define 'historical myth'

What, exactly, is a historical myth?

This is a phrase which gets bandied about a fair bit on this site, sometimes about both sides of an argument. But can you define it?

As I see it, a historical myth implies a 'popular misconception' of some sort, a widely held view which is in fact untrue. Greek myths were fairly well known in their day, after all.

By this definition, things like 'The Lee-Enfield Mk V Rifle was in fact popular with the troops' (see this thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=272679&page=2) is not a historical myth, as no one really knows about it apart from firearms experts and specialists in the small arms of the British Commonwealth. A historical myth would be something like 'Christopher Columbus set sail to prove that the world was round', whereas most educated people at the time actually thought it was round.

Discuss.
 
By this definition, things like 'The Lee-Enfield Mk V Rifle was in fact popular with the troops' (see this thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=272679&page=2) is not a historical myth, as no one really knows about it apart from firearms experts and specialists in the small arms of the British Commonwealth.

Eh, you got a bee in your bonnet over we Jungle Carbine apologists?:D

'Popular misconceptions', 'historical myths', it's all part of the same alphabet soup. I don't hold it against anyone if they apply usage RE 'myth' that doesn't meet the Shorter OED standard. Within reason, of course.
 
I'd say "myth" is widely held belief that isn't true but fits in what we think people in that time period believed.

You mentioned Columbus sailing west to prove earth is round. Isabella selling her jewels to finance him is another.
 
I don't know if I can define the term effectively.
I wouldn't call all Historical Myths a "misconception." Some, but not all, since there are different kinds of historical myths. There are those such as already mentioned..."Christopher Columbus set sail to prove that the world was round."

But, there are others. A historical myth can be a perception of a past/historical event, or serious of events, which made a emotional and psychological impact and clearly left an impression to the group(s) involved, even though the perception may not be that accurate or a exaggeration of what actually happened.

The Vimy Myth is a good example of this type of historical myth. This is the idea that the "Canadian nation was born on the slopes of Vimy Ridge!!" Was it? Well no, it didn't. But it is a fact that this particular battle was the first true time when Canadians fought as one unit fought together as one and won a impressive victory where others (British, French) had failed. It still played a role in national identity for the young country and filling the nation with pride, though it did not create a nation.
 
Something that is not true, that is widely believed and may even be propagated by official sources. Like the idea that Palestine was empty before 1920.
 
Something that is not true, that is widely believed and may even be propagated by official sources. Like the idea that Palestine was empty before 1920.

I don't think anyone is that stupid to believe that.

Although I agree with the gist of what you are saying.
 
Perhaps not in that form; but I have met people who've claimed that the concept of a Palestinian refugee doesn't exist, because they all voluntarily left their homes.
 
Historical myth is what develops over time when the historical record of a real life person, event or people incorporates folklore as fact and exaggerated or biased accounts as reliable truth. Much that's been written about Davy Crockett, for example, could be considered "historical myth."
 
Popular misconceptions are typically things that everyone knows are wrong, but are constantly brought up as examples of the public's ignorance anyway.
 
Popular narratives that happen to be inaccurate or untrue. It's not just historical misconceptions, it's misconceived narratives of historical events that have entered the popular imagination.
 
A myth is more than a misconception. It also meets some kind of social need; it feeds into a society's sense of itself, or its ideas about an outside group. "America's Founding Fathers were Christians" and "America's founding fathers were deists" are two myths that reinforce different groups' ideas about themselves and the United States.
Responding to the OP, yes, a myth can take root even among a small group of people.
 
There's two kinds, one of which comes close to misconception and has been described at length in this thread, but the other is more benign- when we don't and can't know all the facts, what we do know is probably wrong, but it doesn't matter- for instance, Julius Caesar probably didn't write much of the works on Gaul attributed to him, but we'll probably never know for sure, and it doesn't matter one way or the other, so we might as well call them Caesar's.
 
The Vimy Myth is a good example of this type of historical myth. This is the idea that the "Canadian nation was born on the slopes of Vimy Ridge!!" Was it? Well no, it didn't. But it is a fact that this particular battle was the first true time when Canadians fought as one unit fought together as one and won a impressive victory where others (British, French) had failed. It still played a role in national identity for the young country and filling the nation with pride, though it did not create a nation.

This sounds a lot like the Gallipoli story as told in Australia and New Zealand.

Which reminds me one of the great storys of Gallipoli was of Simpson and his donkey brave ignoring the shelling to save the wounded. However following an inquiry into whether he should get a V.C. it turns out the story was a bit imbelished like one of those based on a true story movies. http://www.theage.com.au/national/taken-for-a-ride-20130306-2fli4.html
 

ingemann

Banned
What, exactly, is a historical myth?

Something people want to believe and have on second hand, but which there lack proff off.

Examples.

Cleopatra was black (almost all popular Afrocentric history can be placed in this box).
Europeans in 1492 thought the earth was flat.
People in the past was always dirty (the peasants in hollywood movies).
The Wild West was truely wild and lawless (bank robberies was rare and train robberies close to non-existing).
All people in the past was alcoholics (yes they almost only drank beer and wine, but the beer had very low alcohol content and the wine was usual mixed with water).
 
I have to say, 'mythos' is a pretty good substitute for 'myth that I'm not categorising as untruth'.

An example of a modern buzzword that actually meets a need.
 
Something people want to believe and have on second hand, but which there lack proff off.

Examples.

Cleopatra was black (almost all popular Afrocentric history can be placed in this box).
Europeans in 1492 thought the earth was flat.
People in the past was always dirty (the peasants in hollywood movies).
The Wild West was truely wild and lawless (bank robberies was rare and train robberies close to non-existing).
All people in the past was alcoholics (yes they almost only drank beer and wine, but the beer had very low alcohol content and the wine was usual mixed with water).

Another good and persistent one is that Israeli Merkava tanks are heavily armoured but slow. This is based on fact that Mk Is had weak engines and as such had low hp/weight ratio. This was later fixed with better engines and are now comfortably in ~20 hp/tonne ratio class, same as most modern tanks.
 
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