Defeated Soviet Union

If the Soviet Union was defeated by Allies in an alternate WWII, what would happen with the defeated USSR?

Let's assume this WWII was as devastating as in OTL. And let's assume the Allies ITL are the UK, USA, France, and (relatively democratic) Germany; would the SSR be allowed go relatively free by the victorious allies, and what would happen with Russia proper (occupation zones)?
 
First of all, how did the germans and the allies end up fighting against the soviets...together?
 
Either Weimar Germany survives, or a less radical version of the Nazis take over instead (willing to ally with UK and France against the USSR).
 
First of all, how did the germans and the allies end up fighting against the soviets...together?
How about this..

Soviet Union leader Stalin, in his worst level of self-induced paranoiac fevour after the purges rendered against his Armed Forces, believes that the Western Democracies are planning an insidious plot to have him assassinated... in his own delusional mind...

He orders Beria's NKVD agents abroad to run assassination attempts against the various leaderships in Western Europe & America and try to disrupt them from planning their insidious plots against him eventhough all of this thoughts he is having are self-induced and there are no plots being planned against him by Western Intelligence forces...

The various Western Intelligence agencies gets a heads-up from the German
Intelligence agency, the Abwehr, that the Soviet are planning some assassination runs against their top political leadership....

The various nations prevent such attempts with various levels of success and failures and they among with their own nation's populous, are furious with this nefarious attempt against their political leadership without justification other Stalin's own delusions...

Since you have stated that Germany is relatively democratic..
We could add that the few Western Nations that were unable to stop the assassination would be NAZI Germany where the Gestapo fail to protect Der Fuhrer & his various cronies in Berlin and a Military Gov't took charge under the AEGIS of Adm. Canaris & General Beck & Halder in which the Western Nations banded together and prepare initally a defensive pact against any potential Soviet Invasion of Europe Proper...

President Roosevelt would have just barely survive an assassination attempt due to one of his staff whom in OTL has been rumored to be Soviet Sympathizer had refused to assist in the NKVD attempt to murder his Boss and warn Hoover's FBI and the Army Intelligence of the attempt that they both just barely stop in time....

This is all conjecture and highly not likely unless circumstances occurs in another way...
Just my inane two-bits... :D
 
The US gets the far east, the British get central Asia, Germany gets eastern Europe. France gets a random occupation zone somewhere. Following the war, the US keeps a chunk of Siberia as a territory which gets full of American immigrants and might eventually achieve statehood a la Alaska. A Central Asian Federation is created as a British protectorate. Most of Eastern Europe end up as German puppet states. A rump Russia exists as an ally of the western powers.
 

Eurofed

Banned
First of all, how did the germans and the allies end up fighting against the soviets...together?

With any German leadership any slightly less brutally and blatantly aggressive than OTL Hitler, and/or with any Soviet leadership any slightly less cautious than OTL Stalin, it is exceedingly likely that if a WWII happens at all between late 30s-early 40s European great powers, it shall be an Euro-Soviet war, with Japan playing the wild card.

Anyway, for a very good TL which develops the anti-Soviet WWII scenario, take Onkel Willie's "Munich Coup". It is also one of the two obvious outcomes of my (stalled) TL "Phony War, Short War".

Anyway, as it concerns the main thread topic, this is my take:

East Karelia to Finland.

Transnistria to Romania.

Outer Manchuria to China/Japan.

Independence granted to Baltic states, Belarus, and Ukraine (with the the Don, Kuban and Rostov regions), likely as German satellites.

Independence granted to Central Asian SSRs, likely as a confederation and as British satellites.

Independence granted to Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajian, and the Northern Caucasus Republic, Georgia and Armenia as separate states, the latter two probably in a confederation.

Russia proper under Allied occupation for 5-10 years, then gradually allowed independence.

Possible occupation zones: Northern Russia - Germany; Southern Russia - France and Italy; Western Siberia - Britain; Eastern Siberia - USA.

In all former Soviet states, the Communist Party is declared a criminal organization and disbanded, society is subject to Decommunistization, economy is returned to capitalism, surviving Soviet leaders are tried and sentenced by an international tribunal (there shall be a massive outcry when Allied occupation troops discover ample evidence of Leninist-Stalinist atrocities in Soviet territory, not to mention the abundant war crimes that the Red Army and the NKVD shall surely do in any European occupied country), democratic parties and governments are gradually allowed to be set up under the supervision of the Allies).
 
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Old Airman

Banned
Let's assume this WWII was as devastating as in OTL. And let's assume the Allies ITL are the UK, USA, France, and (relatively democratic) Germany; would the SSR be allowed go relatively free by the victorious allies, and what would happen with Russia proper (occupation zones)?
Taking into account American lack of readiness to join colonial games, I don`t really consider "French protectorate of Ukraine" or "German Baltic Duchy" too likely. However, neither I do believe in occupying powers' willingness to let USSR live as a single political entity. The damn thing is just too big to be controlled from outside for any considerable time. Therefore I suspect that the country would be torn into pieces, SSRs plus several "independent republics" carved out of modern RF. I can even imagine 2 Ukraines (East-West split was very much alive and kicking by 1940) and Soviet Turkestan being completely rearranged from it's "nation"-based map into an old system of city-stans and loose Khanates. On the top of that, formal or semi-formal system of agreements between victorious Powers, dividing rights to strip-mine "Independent countries" of everything and anything of value.
 
All SSR's are divided and gain independence. Some the Central Asian ones may join with others (against their will, and it won't be pretty). European Russia becomes the main concern, whereas Siberia will be harder to control. I find it unlikely Siberia remains a part of Russia so they'll probably be divided. The transition to democracy would be rather simple. Maintaining it, however, is a different story. There were plenty of right-wing nationalists in the Soviet Union that were able to spring up and occupy the void left by the Marxists.

This depends on when the Soviet Union areas become occupied, and whether or not the Purges occur. No purges means a lot more potential leaders for the successor states (some of whom who, Stalin more or less was right about and have questionable intentions at best).

Think of post World War II, and make it last nearly 20 years. Partly why Europe was able to recover well and flourish in an economic miracle was because of anti-Communist aid to keep Germany and other ex-Axis states out of Marxist hands. Now with the lordly state of all aspiring Communists gone, America has won. There will be some aid, no doubt. Nothing on the scale of the Marshall Plan though. Lots of foreign exploitation, continued mining rights for the U.S. and co. in Siberia. Continued famine because collectivization is a bitch to undo quite frankly. The U.S. slowly recedes from Russian affairs and a return to authoritarianism comes, reminiscent of a Middle Eastern state.

Ongoing war in the Central Asian republics that will make Afghanistan look like a water slide in terms of straightforwardness. We could see a lot of ethnic cleansing on a large scale, and not even know about it for quite some time. Russia could stabilize if given attention and properly integrated into the world community. I think the other powers are going to have to recognize the importance of Russian influence though, and how it will be needed in particularly troublesome areas like the Caucases and Central Asia.

Ukraine will go independent for sure, and will probably be the miracle child of the whole scenario. They'd certainly receive the most attention next to Russia, given their importance to grain exports. I'm not sure about Belarus being separated from Russia.
 
Another question to avert another topic...

If the Warsaw Pact is defeated by NATO in a theoretical WWIII, what would happen with the defeated USSR and and the other members of the Warsaw Pact? Assuming only tactical nuclear weapons were used in the war, of course.
 
US gets some of the Russian far east. Depending how long after WWII maybe Japan gets all of Sakhalin. Germany reunited Warsaw Pact countries have pro-west governments put in.
 
So.....the Germany that was democratic and re-arming with Soviet help is 1) allowed to form the kind of 3,000,000 strong invasion force that OTL Germany did along with Britain, France, and most likely Poland and 2) the Soviets somehow without that German aid are considered a military colossus just threatening enough that to not invade them is considered less risky than to invade them? How in the Hell does that happen? :confused:
 
Either Weimar Germany survives, or a less radical version of the Nazis take over instead (willing to ally with UK and France against the USSR).

The elephant in the room is the Treaty of Rapallo, which a more anti-Soviet Weimar Republic simply is not going to get. No Soviet aid, no German army that's already got plans by the 1930s, which is going to delay their re-armament for quite a bit of time.
 
With any German leadership any slightly less brutally and blatantly aggressive than OTL Hitler, and/or with any Soviet leadership any slightly less cautious than OTL Stalin, it is exceedingly likely that if a WWII happens at all between late 30s-early 40s European great powers, it shall be an Euro-Soviet war, with Japan playing the wild card.

Without Stalin any leadership of the U.S.S.R might be both more rash but less frighting to other powers.


Anyway, for a very good TL which develops the anti-Soviet WWII scenario, take Onkel Willie's "Munich Coup". It is also one of the two obvious outcomes of my (stalled) TL "Phony War, Short War".

They're altight if your a fan of Nazi-wank, but meh.


Anyway, as it concerns the main thread topic, this is my take:

East Karelia to Finland - Finland wouldnt take it.

Transnistria to Romania - Ukraine would be quite pissed off.

Outer Manchuria to China/Japan - China long-shot given its an utter mess but maybe, Japan? hell no!

Independence granted to Baltic states - Pre-war status.

Belarus - Lol wat?

Ukraine (with the the Don, Kuban and Rostov regions) - Not a chance in hell of getting the Don-Kuban since ''Ukraine would then be mostly populated by Russians. Added to the fact that Ukraine and Russia are almost as closely linked as Germany & Austria.

Independence granted to Central Asian SSRs - Likely except for north Kazakstan.

Independence granted to Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajian and the Northern Caucasus Republic, Georgia and Armenia as separate states, the latter two probably in a confederation. - A ''confederation'' that'll work about as well as late Yugoslavia.:rolleyes:


In all former Soviet states, the Communist Party is declared a criminal organization and disbanded, society is subject to Decommunistization, economy is returned to capitalism, surviving Soviet leaders are tried and sentenced by an international tribunal (there shall be a massive outcry when Allied occupation troops discover ample evidence of Leninist-Stalinist atrocities in Soviet territory, not to mention the abundant war crimes that the Red Army and the NKVD shall surely do in any European occupied country), democratic parties and governments are gradually allowed to be set up under the supervision of the Allies).

Eh? The Soviets are not direct equivalent to the Nazis. And your ideological-driven desire to whitewash the latter and demonize the former are transparent. For another thing most Soviet citizens and outsiders were already aware of just how bloody & brutal the civil war was and the later Stalinist purges were no revelation to anyone,

As for war-crimes the Red Army will undoubtedly rampage a little and the NKVD will suppress any uprisings but without the brutalization of the Soviet-Nazi war the overall behaviour of the RedArmy would likely be better.
 
Why is the US even involved in such a war to begin with?

The combined might of Europe needs no help and the USSR has no means, let alone a reason, to provoke the US.
 

Eurofed

Banned
They're altight if your a fan of Nazi-wank, but meh.

Someone hilariously failed to notice how the main PoD of Onkel Willie's TL is the overthrow of the Nazi regime by a military coup in 1938 and return of Germany to a democratic Kaiserreich. How that would manage to be a "Naziwank" defies imagination. :rolleyes::eek:

As it concerns my TL, it is difficult to define it a Naziwank since the post-Hitler regime becomes a semi-authoritarian Kaiserreich backed by the army which adopts a foreign policy as cautious as the one of Franco's Spain. Believe me, when I decided to write a real Axiswank, I strived to make their victory as huge and blood-soaked as it could be.

Eh? The Soviets are not direct equivalent to the Nazis.

In a TL where the Nazis never existed, or are wiped out or contained by circumstances before they can do any real damage, and the USSR is the totalitarian country to go on an brutal aggressive rampage on Europe, and the only one to have done systematic large-scale democide ? Suuurre :rolleyes:

And your ideological-driven desire to whitewash the latter and demonize the former are transparent.

In my own Axiswank TL, I made the democidal attitudes of the victorious Axis more far-reaching than OTL plans. Whitewash what ?? I just do not buy the clichè that evil necessarily means stupid and victorious fascism (or communism for that matter) is doomed to ever-increasing ineptitude, loonyness, and failure in any conceivable TL, and wrote accordingly, but that's another matter entirely. Ideologically, I do hold the various democidal variants of totalitarianism as fully equivalent. If someone deems that a "whitewashing" or "demonizing" of some variants, too bad for them.

For another thing most Soviet citizens and outsiders were already aware of just how bloody & brutal the civil war was and the later Stalinist purges were no revelation to anyone,

Leaked tale-tellings are one thing, direct evidence of death camps and mass graves are another. And I was referring to the attitude of the world public opinion about the Soviet regime and Communism after the war.
 
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Someone hilariously failed to notice how the main PoD of Onkel Willie's TL is the overthrow of the Nazi regime by a military coup in 1938 and return of Germany to a democratic Kaiserreich. How that would manage to be a "Naziwank" defies imagination. :rolleyes::eek:

Whereas I can't speak for anyone but myself, I imagine he may have meant that our fondness for that trope around here - implying as it does an implicit trust in the basic goodness of the Junkers - suggests that we like the idea of the Nazi victory only without Nazis better than stuff like "civilian democracy in Germany" and "peace".

In a TL where the Nazis never existed, or are wiped out or contained by circumstances before they can do any real damage, and the USSR is the totalitarian country to go on an brutal aggressive rampage on Europe, and the only one to have done systematic large-scale democide ? Suuurre :rolleyes:

So in a timeline where there was never any Protestant Reformation, the Lollards and Hussites are exactly the same as Lutheranism and Calvinism? It follows not. If something doesn't happen in an ATL then it doesn't happen. Perhaps a world without Nazis is a world a little bit "closer to that dreaded, hated thing, a world of free and equal human beings".

The problems of the USSR going on a "brutal aggressive rampage across Europe" (not only the necessity of Stalin waking up one morning with dramatic suicide on the brain, but also the assumption that the untried Red Army of *1942 would behave like the Read Army of 1945 because um we are going to avoid those implications) have been discussed monies the time afore.

Leaked tale-tellings are one thing, direct evidence of death camps and mass graves are another. And I was referring to the attitude of the world public opinion about the Soviet regime and Communism after the war.

Monies the time afore that I've told this anecdote, but here we go again. Hearken to a leaked, told tale of the mysterious and barbaric Soviet Union (wherein it is always winter, but never Christmas)!

Robert Byron went to Russia in the early 30s to look at some Byzantine frescoes and muse about Stalinism in his spare moments. Though dangerously forthright about the abuses and absurdities of the Soviet system, he found the curators of churches around Novgorod to be welcoming and helpful. The only church to which he was not admitted was closed to the public for the removal of the iconostasis: owing to falling attendances it was no longer in use, and so its relics were being transported to museums. Robert had a bit of a clamjamfry with the workmen and mentioned this in communications with Britain.

When he got home, he was bemused to discover that according to himself, the Soviets were still busily desecrating churches in the Novgorod district. The situation on the raping-nuns-on-fire front remained uncertain.

The right-wing press of the capitalist countries, supported in many cases by the governments, could say any damn thing about the Soviets and communism generally and frequently did. You think "They'll nationalise the women!" is something I made up? Think again.

What do you think people thought about the USSR in the 1930s? Sure, there were those on the left who had willfully blinded themselves - and just as many on the right.

Further, there were no death camps in the late 30s USSR. If they wanted you dead, they didn't faff around with a camp. The camps were for slave-labour, and 90% of their inmates survived. Harsh systems of forced labour were of course - of course, mind you - unknown in the capitalist empires, just like famine. :rolleyes:
 
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Whereas I can't speak for anyone but myself, I imagine he may have meant that our fondness for that trope around here - implying as it does an implicit trust in the basic goodness of the Junkers - suggests that we like the idea of the Nazi victory only without Nazis better than stuff like "civilian democracy in Germany" and "peace".

Indeed, the Junkers like Gerd von Rundstedt were just as much to blame for the horrors of Nazism as the Nazis themselves. Any nation run by the Junkers following a coup is a nasty nasty place, by default.

I've aslo noted there a lot of ''not Nazi honest Germany storming across Europe'' TL's. But maybe one ''Weimar peacefully re-asserts German land claims without casing WW2 or an arms race'' TL.


So in a timeline where there was never any Protestant Reformation, the Lollards and Hussites are exactly the same as Lutheranism and Calvinism? It follows not. If something doesn't happen in an ATL then it doesn't happen. Perhaps a world without Nazis is a world a little bit "closer to that dreaded, hated thing, a world of free and equal human beings".

The problems of the USSR going on a "brutal aggressive rampage across Europe" (not only the necessity of Stalin waking up one morning with dramatic suicide on the brain, but also the assumption that the untried Red Army of *1942 would behave like the Read Army of 1945 because um we are going to avoid those implications) have been discussed monies the time afore.

Indeed, without the Nazis Europe will be a lot more stable. The U.S.S.R will be on good terms with Germany and wont be building up massive amounts of arms. And any war in Europe ids far more likely to be started by Poland, Italy or the Yugoslave powder-keg could blow up
.

Monies the time afore that I've told this anecdote, but here we go again. Hearken to a leaked, told tale of the mysterious and barbaric Soviet Union (wherein it is always winter, but never Christmas)!

Robert Byron went to Russia in the early 30s to look at some Byzantine frescoes and muse about Stalinism in his spare moments. Though dangerously forthright about the abuses and absurdities of the Soviet system, he found the curators of churches around Novgorod to be welcoming and helpful. The only church to which he was not admitted was closed to the public for the removal of the iconostasis: owing to falling attendances it was no longer in use, and so its relics were being transported to museums. Robert had a bit of a clamjamfry with the workmen and mentioned this in communications with Britain.

When he got home, he was bemused to discover that according to himself, the Soviets were still busily desecrating churches in the Novgorod district. The situation on the raping-nuns-on-fire front remained uncertain.

The right-wing press of the capitalist countries, supported in many cases by the governments, could say any damn thing about the Soviets and communism generally and frequently did. You think "They'll nationalise the women!" is something I made up? Think again.

What do you think people thought about the USSR in the 1930s? Sure, there were those on the left who had willfully blinded themselves - and just as many on the right.

Further, there were no death camps in the late 30s USSR. If they wanted you dead, they didn't faff around with a camp. The camps were for slave-labour, and 90% of their inmates survived. Harsh systems of forced labour were of course - of course, mind you - unknown in the capitalist empires, just like famine. :rolleyes:

Hah, pretty much.
 
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