Decisive Sassanid victory in the Sassanid-Roman war or 604-628

ar-pharazon

Banned
So the Roman-Sassanid wars continued on till a hard fought Roman victory that was soon undone by the Islamic conquests.

What if the Sassanids had triumphed decisively?

In essence becoming the Achaemenids come again?

Perhaps driving Rome from Western Asia entirely(or strips on the coast of anatolia?

How would a Sassanid empire that controlled all the Middle East and Egypt up to bythnia fare against the rashidun caliphate?
 
IIRC the Sassanids were already dysfunctional by the turn of the 7th century, so even if they won the Byzantine war an Arab invasion would sweep them aside.

You’d probably see the Byzzies relocate to Southern Italy, with their capital at Syracuse, so they wouldn’t be gone completely.

EDIT: wait, if they keep part of Western Asia they probably don’t change capitals
 
IIRC the Sassanids were already dysfunctional by the turn of the 7th century, so even if they won the Byzantine war an Arab invasion would sweep them aside.

You’d probably see the Byzzies relocate to Southern Italy, with their capital at Syracuse, so they wouldn’t be gone completely.

EDIT: wait, if they keep part of Western Asia they probably don’t change capitals
A successful war can totally change the political climate of the Sassanid Empire though.
 
A successful war can totally change the political climate of the Sassanid Empire though.

Fair enough, since apparently much of the disorder came from the nasty political climate.

It might depend on the length of the war as to whether the Sassanids can weather the Caliphate. If it’s a twenty-year-long slugfest they’ll be devastated nearly as bad as OTL and thus be weak. If it’s a quick, decisive war they could pull through.
 
Fair enough, since apparently much of the disorder came from the nasty political climate.

It might depend on the length of the war as to whether the Sassanids can weather the Caliphate. If it’s a twenty-year-long slugfest they’ll be devastated nearly as bad as OTL and thus be weak. If it’s a quick, decisive war they could pull through.
One thing I never understood was wouldn't the survivors of the war be top notch,highly experienced personnel? Yet quite often,they were often portrayed as the worst troops possible in here.
 
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One thing I never understand was wouldn't the survivors of the war be top notch,highly experienced personnel? Yet quite often,they were often portrayed as the worst troops possible in here.

This. I'm of the opinion that the soldiers of the Sassanid Empire, all the way up until the defeat of Khosrow Yazdegerd III, were the finest front-line troops in the world and their generals like Andarzaghar and Bahman were masters of conducting set-piece battles. Andarzaghar manages to repel a Muslim charge led by Khalid and comes very close to breaking the Rashidun lines until the Arab cavalry held in reserve (which the Romans didn't have in such quality) tears him apart with a rear attack. Harvan actually outmanuvers Khalid by forcing him to fight a frontal battle at Sinyy. These were highly trained and professional troops led by skilled career generals. The only reason why the Sassanids get steamrolled in OTL is because the Arabs were playing a whole different game than the one that the Romans and Persians were used to by the time they come roaring into Iraq. Combine that with Khalid ibn al Walid's flair for unorthodox tactics and even quality troops can be humbled through little fault of their own.
 
Heraklios thought about retreating to Carthage, until the patriarch Sergios made him change his mind. But what if not? Gurps AE suggests that the new empire might have expanded into Africa.

Of course, if the Arabs still attack, the Byzantines might make a comeback as well. Enemy of my enemy, y'know.
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
That's part of what I was imagining the Byzantines driven back to Europe and North Africa and then the Arabs throwing the Sassanids on the backfoot and allowing the Byzantines to sweep back in and retake at least part of Anatolia and maybe Egypt and the levant.

Or parts therof.
 
If the Sassanids control the Fertile Crescent and Egypt and if the Muslims still try to expand beyond Arabia, i'm afraid the latter will have a tougher job, because the religious minorities of the former Byzantine territories will already have someone to guarantee their religious freedom.
 
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Why are we so sure the Rashidun will ever be a thing or even that Muhammad will unify the whole peninsula? Before 629 the Prophet only ruled Medina and its surroundings if the war ends in the earlier 620s and the Sasanids avoids the 628-631 mess (very likely) the Empire would actually move to protect its clients in Yemen, Oman and Bahrain, Islam may as well remain a fringe cult in the Hijaz.
 
Why are we so sure the Rashidun will ever be a thing or even that Muhammad will unify the whole peninsula? Before 629 the Prophet only ruled Medina and its surroundings if the war ends in the earlier 620s and the Sasanids avoids the 628-631 mess (very likely) the Empire would actually move to protect its clients in Yemen, Oman and Bahrain, Islam may as well remain a fringe cult in the Hijaz.

Well, by the time that Islam was becoming a serious enough force in those regions, it was basically the inertia of Muhammad's proselytizing wave that flipped the tribes in Yemen and Oman to his banner rather than any concerted military effort. I'd say that those regions listed would still go Muslim in Prophet Muhammad's day, but the attempt to put down the apostate rebellions in those regions during Abu Bakr's reign might go wrong.


I hesitate to say that even an Islam that fails to bring Yemen, Bahrain, and Oman into the Caliphate would remain a "fringe cult." It would be very different, yes, and probably re-blend with the earlier hanif monotheism present in the Hijaz, but Islam was too deeply rooted in the Companion generation of Arabia to simply retreat into fringe status if the core cites haven't been taken (something like having Tulayha successfully sack and massacre the population of Madinah like he almost did OTL.) Folks like Umar, Ali, Ayesha, Uthman, Hassan, Hussein, Mu'awiya, Usama, and Khalid would all still be around - and that group of people are too ambitious to leave Islam an inward-looking faith.
 
Eastern Romans make a even greater comeback, and beat the shit out of the Sassanids. You likely see them suddenly overextended with victory, and collapsed in on themselves. It won't help it now has so many Christians, and Greeks within its Empire now.

They will still suffer civil war and instability from such an huge and destructive war. It does not matter if they won, or not.

And HOW does the Persians take Constantinople? Roman naval supremacy is nothing to joke about.
 
They will still suffer civil war and instability from such an huge and destructive war. It does not matter if they won, or not.

A triumph on that magnitude butterflies the anarchy of OTL. Khosrow is vindicated and victorious completely. It's not impossible either - I'm visualizing a PoD where no capable leaders emerge to stem the Sassanian tide. Roman naval supremacy would always be an issue but might be insufficient to do more than maintain supply to cities on the Anatolian coast should the Sassanians be able to take some major cities in the interior and pillage the countryside with impunity.

I agree however, that OP's prompt is a bit unrealistic. I think that Anatolia would be unlikely to be lost for any significant length of time, but the rest of the Near East could be permanently stripped away.
 
And HOW does the Persians take Constantinople? Roman naval supremacy is nothing to joke about.

Maybe somehow getting Copts to work for them? I'm not sure that they could paint themselves as liberators of the minority Christians like the Rashidun did, but if so, Coptic sailors are also no joke. Converted Copts sailing for the literally 6 year old Rashidun Navy wiped out the much more venerable Roman Navy in the Battle of the Masts. Even if you don't have much of a naval tradition, all you need to do is make a good offer to guys who do.
 
A triumph on that magnitude butterflies the anarchy of OTL. Khosrow is vindicated and victorious completely. It's not impossible either - I'm visualizing a PoD where no capable leaders emerge to stem the Sassanian tide. Roman naval supremacy would always be an issue but might be insufficient to do more than maintain supply to cities on the Anatolian coast should the Sassanians be able to take some major cities in the interior and pillage the countryside with impunity.

I agree however, that OP's prompt is a bit unrealistic. I think that Anatolia would be unlikely to be lost for any significant length of time, but the rest of the Near East could be permanently stripped away.

I think this would be a case of 'Winning the War, but losing the Peace'. Khosrow is vindicated, that's wonderful, but how is he going to rebuild the Empire? He is victorious, but now is face with the task of putting everything back together, and that's harder then leading any army. One screw up, and he will lose everything.

The Eastern Roman Navy, at this time, is simply the most well funded, well trained, well build, and outnumbering everyone else in the region. I just can't see it. The Eastern Romans can regroup, and teach the Sassanians a lesson.

Christianity may eventually replace Zoroastrianism as the state faith. I am serious. With the conquest of almost entirely Christianize territories (Syria, Egypt, the Maronite, the Syriac Orthodox.) Kick the Sassanians out of power, and Persia will made Christian in due time.
 
how is he going to rebuild the Empire

His army is intact and well trained and his empire is totally undamaged in this scenario. The Syrians and Egyptians will find themselves with low tax burdens and no persecution, presumably - just a light occupation. In this era local provincial rebellions were rare and unlikely to succeed. Egypt in particular makes a poor ground for a rebellion - the terrain disfavors civil wars and insurrection.

As I've said, Anatolia is probably a lost cause but naval invasions and naval supply lines are tricky in any era but especially the premodern one.

If the Sassanians tried to replace Zoroastrianism (unlikely) they would be overthrown at home and Iran would remain unchanged. The Parthian families have too much invested in state orthodoxy and the real power of the state is partially dependent on their consent. However this would present a great opportunity for Rome to wrest back their old provinces - probably the best they'd ever get.

Edit: almost the entire war was fought on Roman territory. Mesopotamia and Armenia are not the heartlands of the Sassanian Empire nor the heartlands of any putative Iranian state after the Achaemenids. A few years after this war the Sassanians were fielding armies in the tens to hundred thousand range, depending on what sources you buy into. That's not a state tottering on the brink of collapse.
 
Eastern Romans make a even greater comeback, and beat the shit out of the Sassanids. You likely see them suddenly overextended with victory, and collapsed in on themselves. It won't help it now has so many Christians, and Greeks within its Empire now.

They will still suffer civil war and instability from such an huge and destructive war. It does not matter if they won, or not.

And HOW does the Persians take Constantinople? Roman naval supremacy is nothing to joke about.
Does he even need to take Constantinople?With so many territories lost,the ERE was in a more desperate situation than the Sassanids. Wipe out whatever force that still remains with Heraclius,and it's mission accomplished.
I think this would be a case of 'Winning the War, but losing the Peace'. Khosrow is vindicated, that's wonderful, but how is he going to rebuild the Empire? He is victorious, but now is face with the task of putting everything back together, and that's harder then leading any army. One screw up, and he will lose everything.

The Eastern Roman Navy, at this time, is simply the most well funded, well trained, well build, and outnumbering everyone else in the region. I just can't see it. The Eastern Romans can regroup, and teach the Sassanians a lesson.

Christianity may eventually replace Zoroastrianism as the state faith. I am serious. With the conquest of almost entirely Christianize territories (Syria, Egypt, the Maronite, the Syriac Orthodox.) Kick the Sassanians out of power, and Persia will made Christian in due time.
Feudalism. The Sassanid Empire is a feudal state. Just grant lands to the Persian nobles in the newly conquered Roman lands as reward for their services.It's far easier to control newly conquered lands through feudalism than direct control,and by rewarding the nobles,the political situation's going to be far more stable for Khosrau.
 
I've been wondering... will the Sassanids be able to take the Aegean and Greece or is that too much?
And if they do annex Constantinople, what will they rename it as? Khosravabad, in honour of their shah?
 
Well, by the time that Islam was becoming a serious enough force in those regions, it was basically the inertia of Muhammad's proselytizing wave that flipped the tribes in Yemen and Oman to his banner rather than any concerted military effort. I'd say that those regions listed would still go Muslim in Prophet Muhammad's day, but the attempt to put down the apostate rebellions in those regions during Abu Bakr's reign might go wrong.
It is quite disingenuous to disregard the military aspect of earlier Islam to its expansion, sure some (many) would follow Muhammad's vision, others wouldn't and those would call Khosrow for help if the Muslims act aggressively.

You likely see them suddenly overextended with victory, and collapsed in on themselves. It won't help it now has so many Christians, and Greeks within its Empire now.
That's awfully fatalistic, I mean the Sasanids ruled Syria and Egypt for around 10 years (including the last years when the Empire was crumbling against Heraclius) with only small revolts breaking out amd easily crushed. Also how did "overextention" kill the Caliphate in a few years? It took until the 9th century and even then breakaway regions still claimed nominal fealty to the Caliph in Baghdad, it is more complicated than EU4 claims to be.

Christianity may eventually replace Zoroastrianism as the state faith. I am serious. With the conquest of almost entirely Christianize territories (Syria, Egypt, the Maronite, the Syriac Orthodox.) Kick the Sassanians out of power, and Persia will made Christian in due time.
Of course, we can't have a Sasanian thread without this.
 
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