Decisive German Response to the Wielkopolska Uprising of 1918–1919

German resistance during the Wielkopolska Uprising was relatively weak and the same time the Poles took care not to escalate it into wider conflict due to fears of decisive armed response. In the end such fears turned out to be unfounded and the uprising succeeded. WI that was not the case and Germany organized an armed response in the beginning of 1919 and attempted to crush the uprising?

1. The decision to do so would surely be a blunder as it would risk an Entente attack in the west. Who would be authorized to make that decision? What kind of (un)intended provocation or pretext would serve as a suitable POD? Perhaps more daring Polish behavior or an attempt to extend the uprising to other provinces?
2. How much forces could Germany mobilize to deal with the uprising and how large would the strength disparity be? Is it possible for Poland to defend efficiently? Is it likely to keep Warsaw? Would the fight last long enough for an Entente advance in the west?
3. Would the Entente offensive even take place? If so, how successful would it be? How would the entire situation affect the negotiations in Versailles?
4. What happens on other Polish fronts? Could the Ukrainians take Lvov? Would the Czechs be tempted to secure Cieszyn earlier or perhaps be pressured into fighting alongside the Poles? Effects on the Russian Civil War?

Similar thread was recently derailed so I’ll appreciate sticking to the topic. ;)
 
Actually, such a decisive action had been prepared - and was about to be launched, when the Germans learned that the Versailles dictate was giving away the whole area to Poland anyway.
In a rather tumultuous session the Generals asked Noske to become dictator of Germany and to push through the attack on the Poles in the Posen Province.
After Noske refused, the whole affair collapsed pretty soon.

The attack had been planned with two pincers. One formed by Otto von Below's XVII AK and Grenschutzkommando Nord along the Vistula, the second by VI. AK and Grenzschutzkommando Süd out of Lower Silesia.
The Generals were sure to create facts before anyone could react. Hindenburg even talked of taking Warsaw.
 
Actually, such a decisive action had been prepared - and was about to be launched, when the Germans learned that the Versailles dictate was giving away the whole area to Poland anyway.
Indeed. Polands reduced its military activity and redirected forces from the east, especially Galicia, in anticipation of that attack.
After Noske refused, the whole affair collapsed pretty soon.
Do you happen to know the exact date or how likely it was for him to decide differently? That seems to be the most likely POD, save perhaps for the Poles severing the Konigsberg-Berlin railway line and thus blocking German evacuation from Russia and prompting them to 'evacuate through Warsaw'.
One formed by Otto von Below's XVII AK and Grenschutzkommando Nord along the Vistula, the second by VI. AK and Grenzschutzkommando Süd out of Lower Silesia.
No mention of German forces still in Russia? Even if relatively disorganized those troops would threaten a whole new front.
 
The forces still on Russian soil were considered incapable of any military action. From what I've read, their discipline was only holding as long as all orders given to them were directed on getting them home. And they were selling their weapons to everyone, or on the Warsaw track, simply delivering them to the Poles in order to get a ticket for home.
I'll provide the date and the participants tomorrow. It's something I've not yet available electronically.
 
The meeting was held on June 19th, 1919.
Attendants were: Gustav Noske; Colonel Reinhardt for the war ministry;
Gen. von Lossberg CoS OKdo Süd; Col. Heye CoS OKdo Nord; Gen. Otto von Below CO XVII AK; Gen. Groener OHL; Gen. von Lüttwitz CO RWGrpKdo I;
Gen. von Möhl CO RWGrpKdo IV; Gen. Fortmüller CO Saxon troops; Gen. Renner CO Württemberg troops;Gen. Maercker CO troops in central Germany;
Admiral von Trotha Chief of Admiralty.

Some 250,000 troops had been brought together for the operation. FK von Diebitsch was to strike out of Lithuania.
Groeners statement is quite interesting:
The complete Posen Province could be taken again, Warsaw could be reached. But in the west, defence was only possible starting at the Elbe River.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I was thinking if the German response could be kept unofficial but with German support, maybe the freikorps setting up a pro-German free state under the German minority, the allies would/could ignore it.
 

Susano

Banned
I was thinking if the German response could be kept unofficial but with German support, maybe the freikorps setting up a pro-German free state under the German minority, the allies would/could ignore it.

Not France. And France was effectively calling the shots diplomatcially among the Entente, since the UK and USA just didnt care. And France really wanted this thorn on the other side of Germany and hence a strong Poland...
 
The meeting was held on June 19th, 1919.
That is later than I originally suspected, well after the cease-fire.
I was thinking if the German response could be kept unofficial but with German support, maybe the freikorps setting up a pro-German free state under the German minority, the allies would/could ignore it.
In addition to Susano’s reply, would Freikorps forces be enough to retake the province? One source I found estimated Polish forces in mid-June at 180 thousand soldiers in 12 divisions. (Likely not enough to repel the German regular forces.) As for the ‘Posen Free State’, I don’t really see it as feasible. It would be eventually be reunified with either Germany or Poland.
I didn’t even know Wikipedia existed in 1918!
?
 

Cook

Banned
Wielkopplska 1918: Wikipedia 1918.
Clearly that little pun didn’t pass the translation barrier.
:(
 
Wielkopplska 1918: Wikipedia 1918.
Clearly that little pun didn’t pass the translation barrier.
:(

I thought of Wikipedia the moment I read the thread title. Perhaps traveling encyclopedia salesmen were instrumental in starting the uprising?

I can also see Wielkopaloosa in the title. :)
 

Germaniac

Donor
I've encountered Wikipedia article in German that may be relevant to the topic. Could someone translate or summarize it?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oststaat-Plan

From what I can take from it, which admittedly is small, it seems to be a plan to group the eastern German provinces into a single state (whether separate of Germany headed by the Kaiser, or a state inside of the Reich I'm not sure). It would hold of the Poles and with assistance from the Baltic States would keep the Eastern Provinces under German Control.
 

Susano

Banned
I've encountered Wikipedia article in German that may be relevant to the topic. Could someone translate or summarize it?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oststaat-Plan

Its a bit unclearly formulated at points, but:

A plan presented by the East Prussian Oberpräsident (leader of the East Prussian administration) at the end of WW1, Adolf von Batocki. West Prussia and East Prussia were to form an own German federal state, however (temporarily one can assume) seperated from the "Reichsverband" (i.e. the Germany-wide administrtaive structure) - and hence (again, one can only assume, as said the text is shoddily formulated) de facto independent, while de jure not. The purpose for this was to be that the Oststaat could then fight Poland, without a diplomatic backlash for Germany proper. Seems rather a silly concept...
It also says Posen and Silesia were to join. I intepret that as saying the plan was engineered and supported in the Prussias, but ideally those two were to join as well.

The plan was supported by the head of President Ebert's office and the German governor in the Baltic occupied territories, while the West Prussian Oberpräsident, the Präsidenten (heads of the Regierungsbezirke, one level below the provinces) of Allenstein and Bromberg, and the mayors of Danzig and Königsberg were at least sympathetic, as were parts of the "People's Councils" in Posen that had been formed to fight the Polish insurgents.

Further major support came apparently from the militia, which raised quite an amount of people militias. The article claims upon hearing the extent of the military in the area in question parts of the German government wanted a plebisciet abbout that, but local politcans in support of the plan declined, because due to the hasty speed of it and lacking infrastructrue it would not really be able to relfect the wishes of the population.

Apparently, the idea went down the drain when Batocki travelled to Weimar, where the constitutional convent was convening, where his ideas were rejected by Erzberger, German finance minister and previously minister for the execution of the armistice. Following that, Batocki cancelled all plans of fighting th Poles, which after all were the heart of the entire idea.

---
Now, if you ask me, the article doesnt sound credible. I think it was just one of those local phenomena at the time, and the article is too sympathetic to it and I think overextents the influence Batocki and his supporters actually had.
 
Thank you.

As you pointed out, I don't quite understand how that plan avoids Entente backslash, especially since there seems that no 'rebellion' is involved.
 

Germaniac

Donor
After Further review it would have indeed been a separatist East Prussian State. There are references to it in other sources and if I wasn't so broke I'd get a JSTOR account to be able to read them. But, It seems to have been a legitimate separatist movement. Going by the 1905 Census (which grated doesn't account for alot of subsequent events) the Total populations of the Regions joining this Eastern Prussian State are

Total Peoples: 7.363.542
Total Germans: 4.105.660
Total Poles/Kashubians: 2.922.163
Total Czechs/Slavs: 335.719

So Germans hold the Majority, however slightly. This doesn't take into account the response from the Eastern allies though.
 
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