Decisive Darkness: A Morning Reborn [Korea]

[adamu_kun]

Ooooh... It is gonna be a real blow when the overturning of the surrender comes down. That will be the signal for the Soviets to keep going. They are already due to launch amphibious assaults on North Korea in four days and major ground elements will likely cross the border within the next month once the supply lines catch-up.

Interesting point I didn't pick up on earlier - too busy skimming through to read the rather frequent updates.

Japan was in a pretty bad state even before the surrender became a non-surrender. How long is this news (of non-surrender and reversal of the previous surrender) going to take to get to the 'core colonies' of Korea and Taiwan? It may take more than 4 days for it to reach some quarters, even if the Soviets have already heard it, so - and this is pretty scary (and dark, as it should be!) - the Sovs could end up invading a Korea that's already been evacuated by the Japanese and end up invading, then occupying 'free' Korea.

Now how will that sit with the WAllies after the dust has settled post-war? Not going to look too good for Stalin, is it? It may even trigger an earlier Korean War to kick the Sovs out and by default a WWIII right at the end of WWII.

Hang on...! Is this where the Decisive Darkness universe is heading?

I shall sleep safe though in the full knowledge that Stalin's more than a few years away from nukes and will hopefully get curb-stomped by the WAllies. What may happen in Europe though is a completely different kettle of fish. The WAllies have drawn down even more than they had done by this point in time in OTL (and even have troops that right now, in the original DD timeline, were fighting Hitler, but are now marching into the Boso Peninsula in Chiba-ken).

This is a scary, nightmarish world that came so close to actually happening in OTL, but thankfully never did. But it's a story that must be told and is a riveting read for Korea and Japan! Keep giving me nightmares guys, I'm loving it!

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Now that brings a touch of the requisite 'Decisive Darkness' darkness to the timeline but with a touch of optimism.



Now that puts all optimism out of the window. If Korea becomes like East Germany, who is it going to reunify with at the end of the cold war to invest in building up infrastructure and help it into the capitalist world / into the 21st Century? Reabsorption as a vassal state of China? Not likely I think, but the Chinese would love it I guess

Mind you, it could have some pretty amusing butterflies. Hyundai and Kia could be TTL's Trabant and Wartburg. And rather than Spreewald gherkins and 'Ostalgie', we could have commie-era kimchi and 'Korstalgie'

East Germany was, in many ways, the powerhouse of the Soviet Blok. If they had not gotten any help from the West Germans, theyd still get investment, etc, from the rest of Europe and would be now the richest exWarsaw Pact country - just ahead of the Czech Republic.

If this Korea does as well as East Germany, they'll be very lucky - but at the end of communism would get lots of investment from the US, Europe, Japan, etc.

 

[adamu_kun]

East Germany was, in many ways, the powerhouse of the Soviet Blok. If they had not gotten any help from the West Germans, theyd still get investment, etc, from the rest of Europe and would be now the richest exWarsaw Pact country - just ahead of the Czech Republic.

If this Korea does as well as East Germany, they'll be very lucky - but at the end of communism would get lots of investment from the US, Europe, Japan, etc.

True, it was.

I'm not so sure though that post-commie Korea would get investment from the US, Europe and Japan. Europe would be too busy investing in and supporting post-commie Eastern Europe, Japan was just experiencing its bubble bursting and the US was really busy worrying about Japan and beginning to invest in the rapidly opening post-Deng reform China.

I guess it would get some, but with the major economies busy elsewhere, I'd guess than it's less than you would think it would be.

Unless of course the butterflies at work here (in Japan as well) butterfly away the Japanese bubble bursting and the fall of communism in Europe. In fact, after the national suicide Japan is undertaking in the DD timelines, is there really going to be a booming economy of note in Japan anyway by the 1990s? EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, there probably will be as if Korea stays communist and China's civil war progresses as per OTL with Mao winning, as despite pretty much annihilating everything with a pulse in Japan, the Americans will definitely want some kind of beachhead against communism in Asia, especially with Hokkaido under Soviet occupation (which has been surprisingly quiet of late in the Red's original timeline - makes me feel that they're definitely up to something, probably none of it good!).

 

[John Farson]

Japan was in a pretty bad state even before the surrender became a non-surrender. How long is this news (of non-surrender and reversal of the previous surrender) going to take to get to the 'core colonies' of Korea and Taiwan? It may take more than 4 days for it to reach some quarters, even if the Soviets have already heard it, so - and this is pretty scary (and dark, as it should be!) - the Sovs could end up invading a Korea that's already been evacuated by the Japanese and end up invading, then occupying 'free' Korea.

There were c. 225,000 Japanese soldiers of the 17th Area Army in Korea at the time of the surrender, and they had been ordered north on August 10th to oppose the Red Army advancing south through Manchukuo. In addition, there were over 850,000 Japanese settlers in Korea at the time. There is no way on earth that the Japanese can evacuate the peninsula on time before the Soviets arrive - assuming such an order is even given.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

How long is this news (of non-surrender and reversal of the previous surrender) going to take to get to the 'core colonies' of Korea and Taiwan? It may take more than 4 days for it to reach some quarters, even if the Soviets have already heard it, so - and this is pretty scary (and dark, as it should be!) - the Sovs could end up invading a Korea that's already been evacuated by the Japanese and end up invading, then occupying 'free' Korea.

The Koreans have no means of getting the Japanese out of Korea before the first Soviet troops come ashore.

Now how will that sit with the WAllies after the dust has settled post-war?

They'll grumble about it, but possession is 9/10ths of the law and Stalin will have possession.

Not going to look too good for Stalin, is it?

He doesn't care at this point.

It may even trigger an earlier Korean War to kick the Sovs out and by default a WWIII right at the end of WWII.

Now that is in the same fantasy as Operation Unthinkable. Most of the American public don't even know that there is a place called Korea, much less have any opinion of it. On the other hand, they still think of the Soviet Union as their friends and are looking forward to the on-coming peace once Japan is defeated.

I shall sleep safe though in the full knowledge that Stalin's more than a few years away from nukes and will hopefully get curb-stomped by the WAllies.

The idea that the Soviets get "curb-stomped" by the Western Allies is one that displays both a radical underestimation of how much of a juggernaut the Red Army had become by 1945 and ignorance of the WAllie's publics attitude towards the Soviets.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

One other thing in mind: what would be the fate of the Koreans in the Yanbian Prefecture in China ITTL? I'm not sure if it was true that China toyed with the idea of giving Yanbian to North Korea IOTL.

 

[Life In Black]

Something a friend asked me to post here:

In 1948, the Soviet Union agreed with the Provisional People's Committee for North Korea on the annexation of three Korean (Majority) Autonomous Regions of Andong, Jilin, and Jiandao to the future government of North Korea. Jiando was to be expanded from just Yanbian to include Mudanjiang.

Obviously this didn't go well with Mao, and thus until the Korean War there were numerous border clashes which only stopped when the UN forces started marching north towards Manchuria. Kim basically gave up all Manchurian claims in order to get the aid of PRC.

Interpretation of the agreement

 

[zeppelinair]

August 15, 1945. Seoul, Korea.

...And the evening and the morning were the first day.

~ Principles of the Preparatory Committee for National Construction of Korea(PCNCK):

1. Each man and every faction, regardless of association or political affiliation, will work together to remove influence of the Japanese Empire and bring freedom and liberty to the Korean people.

2. By working together with the Allied forces, all will help establish a united anti-Japanese front and remove all pro-Japanese reactionaries who interfere with installment of a new government.

3. All will focus on the democratic liberalization of the Korean people for betterment of the current situation.


~ 대한 건국 준비위원회 강령.

1. 각인 각파는 대동단결하여 거국일치로 일본제국주의 제세력을 구축 하고 조선민족의 자유와 독립을 회복할 것.

2. 반추축제국과 협력하여 대일 연합전선을 형성하고 조선의 완전한 독립을 저해하는 일체 반동세력을 박멸할 것.

3. 건설부면에 있어 일체 시정을 민주주의적 대중의 해방에 치중할 것.

 

[zeppelinair]

heheheh

This has been duly noted.
*evil cackle*

 

[Edward_Elric]

This has been duly noted.
*evil cackle*

Korea-wank in the making?

Or is the peninsula going to face some interesting times, in the Chinese sense of the phrase?

Keep going zeppelinair, it's cool that we've got one of our few East-Asia-centric TLs getting an expanded universe.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Something a friend asked me to post here:

Grain of salt warning; AFAIK, these information about the treaty are can only be found in the RoC archive (and the KMT had a tendency to accuse Beijing of making deal with Moscow and selling out Manchuria) and are yet to be confirmed by any other source.

 

[zeppelinair]

Grain of salt warning; AFAIK, these information about the treaty are can only be found in the RoC archive (and the KMT had a tendency to accuse Beijing of making deal with Moscow and selling out Manchuria) and are yet to be confirmed by any other source.

There was an issue about this a long time ago, in the original thread.

Contested Border: A Historical Investigation into the Sino-Korean Border Issue, 1950–1964

This paper was written by two professors from Shanghai, not from the RoC. And they say, I quote:

"The contested Sino-Korean border issue has received very little study. Making use of presently available sources in the several different archives in China and Taiwan, as well as documents made public in South Korea, we examine in this article the historical background of the Sino-Korean border issue and border relations from 1950 to 1964. North Korea was dissatisfied with the Jiandao Treaty of 1909, but was uneasy about raising that dissatisfaction with the Chinese in the 1950s. When China was caught in a number of woeful domestic and international predicaments in 1962, Pyongyang seized the opportunity and proposed to Beijing that the border issue be settled. It took the two sides only six months to negotiate and sign a new boundary treaty. As a result, North Korea emerged with a larger share of Tianchi and other disputed areas."

I thank Chris S for originally finding the source.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

There was an issue about this a long time ago, in the original thread.

Contested Border: A Historical Investigation into the Sino-Korean Border Issue, 1950–1964

This paper was written by two professors from Shanghai, not from the RoC. And they say, I quote:

"The contested Sino-Korean border issue has received very little study. Making use of presently available sources in the several different archives in China and Taiwan, as well as documents made public in South Korea, we examine in this article the historical background of the Sino-Korean border issue and border relations from 1950 to 1964. North Korea was dissatisfied with the Jiandao Treaty of 1909, but was uneasy about raising that dissatisfaction with the Chinese in the 1950s. When China was caught in a number of woeful domestic and international predicaments in 1962, Pyongyang seized the opportunity and proposed to Beijing that the border issue be settled. It took the two sides only six months to negotiate and sign a new boundary treaty. As a result, North Korea emerged with a larger share of Tianchi and other disputed areas."

I thank Chris S for originally finding the source.

I may purchase and read this article in future, but my suspicion is that the research is about the Mt Baekdu and Yalu-Tumen river problem, and not about so-called the Gando territories and the Treaty of Pyongyang 1948 (supposed).

 

[The Red]

I may purchase and read this article in future,

Hold on for a little while, I'm on my phone at the moment but I might be able to get free access via my University.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Hold on for a little while, I'm on my phone at the moment but I might be able to get free access via my University.

*draws the holy sign and prays*

 

[zeppelinair]

Hold on for a little while, I'm on my phone at the moment but I might be able to get free access via my University.

So your university allows you to gain access to its pdf file for free? awesome!
I'd also like a look, other than yourself and Fischer!

 

[The Red]

So your university allows you to gain access to its pdf file for free? awesome!

How else do you think I managed to get such in-depth knowledge on countries I previously struggled to point to on a map?

I wouldn't get my hopes up just yet, not sure if I've used this service before but if I can get it then I'll send it to you and Fischer.

 

[CDurham]

The Koreans have no means of getting the Japanese out of Korea before the first Soviet troops come ashore.

They'll grumble about it, but possession is 9/10ths of the law and Stalin will have possession.

He doesn't care at this point.

Now that is in the same fantasy as Operation Unthinkable. Most of the American public don't even know that there is a place called Korea, much less have any opinion of it. On the other hand, they still think of the Soviet Union as their friends and are looking forward to the on-coming peace once Japan is defeated.

The idea that the Soviets get "curb-stomped" by the Western Allies is one that displays both a radical underestimation of how much of a juggernaut the Red Army had become by 1945 and ignorance of the WAllie's publics attitude towards the Soviets.

I agree about the WAllies public attitude. Have you ever watched the movie The Right Stuff? After Chuck Yeager breaks the sound barrier a military officer stops a journalist from calling in the deed saying that the people upstairs don't want the Russians to hear about it, the journalist responds with "the Russians are our allies"

Frankly if the WAllied forces had been ordered to attack the Russians in Europe in an Operation Unthinkable a large number of those forces would have thought that this was either somebody crappy idea of a prank

 

[The Red]

Unfortunately that journal doesn't accept institutional logins, I did find some stuff from The Chinese-Korean Border Issue: An Analysis of a Contested Frontier by Daniel Gomà about the basis of the Korean claim largely being that it was historically Korean centuries beforehand but that the Japanese had also claimed it during their occupation of Manchuria as all Koreans were considered Japanese nationals. It does seem that the Chinese were willing to appease the DPRK to some degree when the latter demanded that the Koreans in the area return to their homeland or at least be given joint citizenship. Gando became the first autonomous area in the PRC shortly after to show that they acknowledged the Kims concerns.

I don't want to give out too many spoilers as to how the mothership canon will eventually look like but there probably is a basis for further Chinese 'sensitivity' on the issue.

 

[zeppelinair]

format

I intend to write extensive stories to the first 7 days, then make timelines from then. Any other stories that i deem necessary for further explanation will be made into a "special chapter".

Chapter 1: In the Beginning...
Chapter 2: the First Day
and so on.