Decembrist Russia discussion

Thande

Donor
I know it's been brought up a few times before, but I'm a bit hazy on just what the ideological motivations of the Decembrists were. Were they just cut-and-paste radical liberals, or did they have more of a specific agenda? What would a Decembrist-ruled Russia look like in, say, 1900?
 
I know it's been brought up a few times before, but I'm a bit hazy on just what the ideological motivations of the Decembrists were. Were they just cut-and-paste radical liberals, or did they have more of a specific agenda? What would a Decembrist-ruled Russia look like in, say, 1900?

Ideologically, they were typical upper-class enlightenment-era humanists. Not very far off from the French Revolution in terms of initial ideology, in my opinion, and chances are Decembrist regime, if it were established in the first place, would have ended up falling, or being overthrown/coopted by yet another character within the Russian political scene within only a few years. My bet is it wouldn't survive until 1840, let alone 1900, even if successful at first.
 
Ideologically, they were typical upper-class enlightenment-era humanists. Not very far off from the French Revolution in terms of initial ideology, in my opinion, and chances are Decembrist regime, if it were established in the first place, would have ended up falling, or being overthrown/coopted by yet another character within the Russian political scene within only a few years. My bet is it wouldn't survive until 1840, let alone 1900, even if successful at first.

Most of Decembrists' leaders were basically, as Midgard said, "..Upper-Class Enlightenment-era humanists." There was two basic camps within the Decembrists Revolt, the Southern Society and the Northern Society, both born out of the mildly-reform orientated Union of Salvation which was founded in 1816. The man that Midgard spoke of came mainly from the Northern Society, a moderate reformist organization based in St. Petersburg. Many got their ideas directly from the reforms of the French Revolution era. Most were officers that had contact with these ideas serving in Europe to help defeat Napoleon and put down post-1815 revolts.

On the other hand, their was also a Southern Society, much more radical and mainly based around improvised landed nobles in Russia's south - although it to had wealthy following. The Southern Society, which also had influence in St. Petersburg was mainly the civilian leaders and sympathizers and was a strange mix of anarchists, demogogues, anti-monarchists and proto-communist/radical socialists along with the usual aristocratic reformers- including a couple of good ol' fashioned rebellious peasants closer to in spirit to Medieval peasant revolts then to modern revolutionaries.

However, most of the prominent leaders were older military officers that had some slight liberal leanings and believed the Constantine would be a reformer and Nicholas a reactionary. If, and it was quite possible, Constantine could be convinced to take the throne and allow for a Constitution - in which Constantine would keep most of the power, but would allow for a very, very weak legislature, think the Duma in 1905. Probably the biggest side-effect would earlier attempts on modernization: codified law system, reform of education, reduction of the privileges of the nobles and priests, limited voting rights, a possible earlier attempted at industrialization, the ending of military colonies and the forcible resettlement of people to the east as colonists and the other worst cases of Czarist absolutism.

Things wouldn't be all rosy and happy though, especially not immediately after the revolt. People like Pavel Pestel and other radicals within the Southern Society would probably stage their own revolt in the South of Russia before too long because the Northern Society's reforms are not broad enough. For a couple of months with vestiges listing for years most of the Southern Russia would be like one massive peasant/socialist revolt with strong nationalist tendencies: nobles being put to death, destruction of monasteries, murdering of priests, redistribution of land, pogroms and other fine things of that nature, basically a mini-version of the Russian Civil War of nearly a century later. Then comes the famine because of the breakdown of infrastructure and the dissolution of farming estates in the southern Russia.

Although both the Northern and the Southern Society had contact with the Polish underground, don't expect an end in occupation of Poland, the Baltic, Finland or anywhere else. The Decembrists had a strong nationalist and Pan-Slavic bent that would be trouble in a couple of decades when they'd try to push in the declining Ottoman Empire and we would get a much more deadly Crimean War - Russia would have started to have some amount of industry and railroads by that point. Also, just because Russia has a constitution don't think anti-semitism would be any less of a problem. The pogroms of the late 1800s and early 1900s will probably get moved up about fifty years and last until there's either no Jews left or the country collapses. As much as the Czar are considered reactionaries they didn't have the kind of populist and demogogic hatred of the Jews and other minorities that some of the German deputies in 1890s did and this would surely carry over to Russian politicians very soon.
 

Thande

Donor
Thanks. Another question - did the Decembrists have a colour or flag associated with them, or is it a mistake to see it all as one movement/rebellion?
 
Thanks. Another question - did the Decembrists have a colour or flag associated with them, or is it a mistake to see it all as one movement/rebellion?

No color or flag that I am aware of - it should, however, be pointed that they were less of a monolithic movement and more of... how to put it best... "like-minded groups" that had a hard enough time organizing their efforts, let alone presenting a united front.
 
Does anyone have any speculation on what the European reaction would be? After all, it's only been a couple years since Napoleon was finally defeated, and none of the conservative monarchies (or the British, for that matter) that sprung up in Europe afterwards would want a revolutionary Russia to upset the applecart again. It's entirely possible that we might see some limited interventions into Russia to support a raspid return to status quo, something like a low-grade version of the Russian Civil War interventions.
 
Does anyone have any speculation on what the European reaction would be? After all, it's only been a couple years since Napoleon was finally defeated, and none of the conservative monarchies (or the British, for that matter) that sprung up in Europe afterwards would want a revolutionary Russia to upset the applecart again. It's entirely possible that we might see some limited interventions into Russia to support a raspid return to status quo, something like a low-grade version of the Russian Civil War interventions.

Austria-Hungary and Prussia will be pissed, but I don't think they can take more then borderlands and, once the situation comes down, have problems holding on to these. In OTL, Russia was the linchpin of absolutism because of its power and Austria is too weak to try to play that role in Russia (as Russia did in Austria in 1848.) Prussia has other interests, mainly consolidating its new holdings and putting down its own liberals and anti-monarchists. Britain's the only country that matters in this scenario, but I don't see them interfering since Russia's constitutional monarchy is much more monarchy than constitutional.

The most illogical assumption that one can have is that the end-goal of the Decembrists was some type of US-style democracy. Their goal was basically to have Constantine, not Nicholas, as Czar with some type of Constitution. Moves from agrarian/absolutist state to some kind of French Revolutionary Republic would be unlikely. Russia has even less of a history of legislative government then France (no such thing as the Estates in Russia.) The only thing that could radicalize a Decembrist Revolution would be Nicholas running of and trying to get support for a foreign invasion (the same way Louis did in France), but this is unlikely. At least at first, this would be unlikely because it looks more like a palace coup then some kind mini-October Revolution. A little bit after the fact, it would just look like a kind of redone Enlightenment despotism that was perfectly acceptable in the 1700s. The Decembrist Revolt was not a French Revolution sparking event, but more like the Glorious Revolution that put the UK on the path to democracy years after the fact.
 

Stalker

Banned
The most illogical assumption that one can have is that the end-goal of the Decembrists was some type of US-style democracy. Their goal was basically to have Constantine, not Nicholas, as Czar with some type of Constitution. Moves from agrarian/absolutist state to some kind of French Revolutionary Republic would be unlikely. Russia has even less of a history of legislative government then France (no such thing as the Estates in Russia.) The only thing that could radicalize a Decembrist Revolution would be Nicholas running of and trying to get support for a foreign invasion (the same way Louis did in France), but this is unlikely. At least at first, this would be unlikely because it looks more like a palace coup then some kind mini-October Revolution. A little bit after the fact, it would just look like a kind of redone Enlightenment despotism that was perfectly acceptable in the 1700s.
Yep, the soldiers that stood on Senate Square said that they came there to stand for Constantine and his wife, Constitution...:)
Nonetheess, there were various factions putting various goals to be achieved, and that was just one of multipe options - particulary that idea was supportes by Nikita Muravyev, Trubetskoy, Volkonsky. Pestel, Yakushkin and some others were much more radical and suggested to kill the Czar. Pestel's Constitution provided for a Provisional Directorate for Transitional Period but it was just another word for Pestel's own dictatorship. Kondratiy Ryleyev wrote that Peste was the most dangerous man in the movement.
You should also take into account Russian mentality whose essense is popuar beief about "a kind Czar and evil boyars-aristocrates surrounding the former and teling him lies". So, with Loyalist Moscow Governor-General and regional aristocrates, the Decembrists will get al "niceties" of wide-scale miitary resistance and peasant Vendée all over, heated by the words that vile aristocrates "killed our Father Czar". People would not easily accept any other dinasty. The only "natural" dinasty for them is Romanovs. It would be a hard Civil War with rivers of blood, and violence and cruelty exceeding the grimmest forecasts.

The Decembrist Revolt was not a French Revolution sparking event, but more like the Glorious Revolution that put the UK on the path to democracy years after the fact.[/QUOTE]
It has features of both but, IMO, eventually coser to jacobins with Pavel (Paul) Pestel at the head. If we put the analogies, we then may compare the Northern Society with "Girondists" and Southern Society - with Jacobins.
They, AFAIK, didn't have any reliable connections with Polish underground - even the United Slavs (Part of Southern Society) who had Poles among them and after Pestel had managed to insist on his own variation of the Constitution being in St. Petersburg, and even secretly et some "Northerners" enter South Society, that made Northern Society get suspicious and try to oust Pestel from real power in the Southern Society through, AFAIR, knyaz Trubetskoy's talks with other eaders of Southern Society. Pestel, nonetheless, kept the real power and was trying to win in the Intersociety Conference panned for 1926 but unexpected "death" of Alexander the Blessed mixed all cards on the table. No, real success of Decembrists was a rea diaster for Russia in the short term but might have brought its fruits in the long run.
There was a very interesting AH-novelette by Lev Vershinin "The First Year of the Republic" (don't know if it has been translated into English) where the POD is success of Southern Society while the Northern has been suppressed. A briiant research of the events in the light of the Dantonian phrase: "the Revoution devours Her children".
 
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