Decades of Darkness

[Jürgen]

I actually think that @Nevermore has the right of it here. The fact that sex between 'owners' and slaves is so common that the average slave is likely to appear mixed-race is likely to make the situation more acute. You have a society which, publically, extolls its strength as resulting from it's pure blood, yet there is a good possibility that a large percentage of that same population has heritage that is, less then 'pure' is going to instill a great cultural anxiety. Then add to that that the group that these quote, unquote 'superior' people rule over are harder and harder to differentiate just by looking at them. There is going to be a very real fear that some of the slaves could potentially pass and 'infiltrate' the nation.

I suspect that *American popular literature is full of taut thrillers about some major political or business figure really being a secret slave who is trying to undermine the country. Which is, of course, gag inducing from our point of view, but it sounds about right for DoD pulp fiction.

But it won’t translate well into daily politics as anything other than keeping baseborn people out of politics. Even in OTL under Segregation w interracial relationship was uncommon, Strom Thurmond fathered a child with a Black teenage maid and while it wasn’t public, it wasn’t a great secret either and no one used it against him. The only time we saw such accusations used against another politicians, were against McCain by Bush the Younger because he had adopted a Tamil child.

You have to remember that elite of TTL USA are depraved, amoral and hypocritical to a level, where anyone outside the system will find it completely incredible that no one react.

 

[DanMcCollum]

But it won’t translate well into daily politics as anything other than keeping baseborn people out of politics. Even in OTL under Segregation w interracial relationship was uncommon, Strom Thurmond fathered a child with a Black teenage maid and while it wasn’t public, it wasn’t a great secret either and no one used it against him. The only time we saw such accusations used against another politicians, were against McCain by Bush the Younger because he had adopted a Tamil child.

You have to remember that elite of TTL USA are depraved, amoral and hypocritical to a level, where anyone outside the system will find it completely incredible that no one react.

Well, the comment wasn't about whether or not an accusation of taking advantage of your slaves would lead to one's political defeat. I would agree with you, that that type of accusation would have no noticable impact whatsoever. However, being accused of having Black ancestry, on the other hand, almost certainly would.

 

[Jürgen]

Well, the comment wasn't about whether or not an accusation of taking advantage of your slaves would lead to one's political defeat. I would agree with you, that that type of accusation would have no noticable impact whatsoever. However, being accused of having Black ancestry, on the other hand, almost certainly would.

Yes but it would mainly be a tool against populist politicians from a common background.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Yes but it would mainly be a tool against populist politicians from a common background.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. There may be the occasional rumor campaign aimed at one of the elites - but they will be much less likely to gain any traction. After all. it would be in the interests of said elites not to let THAT catch on (because the chances are good, its true of a major percentage of them. And best not to look too close), so if such a campaign does catch on against one of them, expect it to be a HUGE scandal.

 

[Nevermore]

But it won’t translate well into daily politics as anything other than keeping baseborn people out of politics. Even in OTL under Segregation w interracial relationship was uncommon, Strom Thurmond fathered a child with a Black teenage maid and while it wasn’t public, it wasn’t a great secret either and no one used it against him. The only time we saw such accusations used against another politicians, were against McCain by Bush the Younger because he had adopted a Tamil child.

You have to remember that elite of TTL USA are depraved, amoral and hypocritical to a level, where anyone outside the system will find it completely incredible that no one react.

Feels like you and I might be talking past each other as I don't think it'd be terribly frequent - just something someone egregious even by ITTL American standards could resort to if they see it as benefiting them in some way. Nor do I think your observations are mutually exclusive with mine; indeed, I think derailing the possible political career of an upstart who wants to make big social changes in some fashion is an excellent usage of such a tactic (especially if they hail from one of the central American, Caribbean, or south American states where the legacy of the old casta system could quite possibly mean that they do have black ancestry somewhere in their past and I feel it'd be even more likely if the acquisition was in the recent past, before Columbia's social mores calcify). It is always a dangerous game, like you've pointed out, but it's something that could conceivably be in someone's arsenal of smears in a time before DNA testing.

After it's possible to at least get some idea of where your ancestors came from? Something tells me that Americans ITTL will make that sort of thing mandatory for to stand for office, let alone be counted as a citizen, once it's easily available and then I think you're onto something with having it be DOA being run as an attack ad.

The US defining itself as “we’re not white supremacist, we’re White-Arab-Oriental-Hindu[1] supremacist” is interesting
[1] Hindu being the common term for Indian

I could see something like that, yeah, once anthropology becomes more in line with the understanding of it in our world. American society is not going to react well to learning the "out of Africa" hypothesis, I'm sure; probably latch onto boasting about Neanderthal DNA giving them evolutionary superiority or, if they really want to be out there, argue that Africans altogether are some kind of subspecies. Broadening the net of "white" to "white and the MENA region," then "MENA and Indo-European," along with tacitly accepting Asians, seems right in line with getting the local elites on board as they've done time and again in the places they've gorged themselves on.

American racialism, as we've seen here, is nothing if not adaptable.

 

[Scrivener]

Seeing that discussion is still going on in this thread, what ever happened to American enslavement of whites? Did that plot thread ever go anywhere, or was it eventually resolved with white enslavement being deemed “inhumane” or, in the worst-case scenario, acceptable, given that the “American race” is now superior to everyone else.

 

[PobreCesar]

Did that plot thread ever go anywhere

I would assume it would remain under contention through the point at which the TL ends. I don't expect it to be resolved quickly though if the *USA doesn't fare well going forwards then I imagine it might get swept up in larger turmoil as the perfidiously evil empire par excellence breaks apart.

 

[PariahNihil]

Just wanted to let @Jared know that this was the first story that I had ever encountered, early in my life when I was learning English and developing my love for the concept of alternate history, and that I will always be grateful for its grandiloquence and general awesomeness and owe my entire love of this genre to this timeline

If I must wait another 13 years to own a copy of an actual DoD novel this girl will remain steadfast til the day *salutes*

 

[Jared]

Just wanted to let @Jared know that this was the first story that I had ever encountered, early in my life when I was learning English and developing my love for the concept of alternate history, and that I will always be grateful for its grandiloquence and general awesomeness and owe my entire love of this genre to this timeline

If I must wait another 13 years to own a copy of an actual DoD novel this girl will remain steadfast til the day *salutes*

Glad you liked it - both times!

For an actual DoD novel... after several attempts, I've reached the conclusion that I need to do something with the mainstream DoD before working on subsequent novels. I'm considering what to do with that, but most likely a polish of the timeline, various changes to reflect some developments and things I've learned since then, and so on. After that, I'd have to work out how to publish it, whether self-publication or via a publisher. Nothing's decided yet, and even if it was there would be a lot of work before it was finalised, but possibly something will happen eventually.

 

[Michael Canaris]

Glad you liked it - both times!

For an actual DoD novel... after several attempts, I've reached the conclusion that I need to do something with the mainstream DoD before working on subsequent novels. I'm considering what to do with that, but most likely a polish of the timeline, various changes to reflect some developments and things I've learned since then, and so on. After that, I'd have to work out how to publish it, whether self-publication or via a publisher. Nothing's decided yet, and even if it was there would be a lot of work before it was finalised, but possibly something will happen eventually.

One thing I’d like to see is updated population tables for the Americas, which seemed to peter-out around *1880.

 

[Jared]

One thing I’d like to see is updated population tables for the Americas, which seemed to peter-out around *1880.

The retcon is likely to go the other way and only provide national (not state) population figures, due to difficulty in extrapolating state population once that diverges so much from OTL. (That was the reason they stopped in the first place).

 

[robertsconley]

For an actual DoD novel... after several attempts, I've reached the conclusion that I need to do something with the mainstream DoD before working on subsequent novels. I'm considering what to do with that, but most likely a polish of the timeline, various changes to reflect some developments and things I've learned since then, and so on. After that, I'd have to work out how to publish it, whether self-publication or via a publisher. Nothing's decided yet, and even if it was there would be a lot of work before it was finalised, but possibly something will happen eventually.

Looking forward to it. I will be one of the first in line to get it.

 

[Nevermore]

One thing I’d like to see is updated population tables for the Americas, which seemed to peter-out around *1880.

I'd personally like to see Supreme Court cases in New England and the U.S. Always wondered how the two of them diverged legally, outside of obvious things that each society took for granted.

A bit more of Mullins' life story would be interesting too.

 

[Marius Mazzini]

I finally was able to read through the entirety of the Decades of Darkness in the past few weeks, though I knew about the broad outline of the TL and had skimmed significant portions of it before. It is truly a monumental work and one of the most elaborate fictional universes ever created.

Some questions and speculations:

1) We see glimpses of the *American and German film industries, but what of the animation industry? Will this TL have the equivalent of a Walt Disney who not only pioneers animation techniques but creates multiple classic films and characters? Given the DOD US is much more relaxed about censorship cartoons may be seen as less of a strictly kids thing in TTL, with there being more edgier cartoons with humour aimed at adults. Alternatively, it may be Germany that pioneers more child friendly animation (Germany after all being the home of Grimm's fairy tales) while US cartoons are seen as more adult oriented. Something like anime (although obviously with very different styles and tropes) with serious mature storylines and high production values along the lines of Akira or at least Studio Ghibli films may eventually emerge in the United States.

Incidentally given DOD US identifies so strongly with Rome, a version of Hail, Caesar! set in Hanseltown would be very amusing to seen. The US/Roman identification may produce anti-Roman epics in the other powers. For the most obvious example, Germany can make a film about Arminius and the Battle of Teutoburg Forest where Arminius is portrayed as sort of a proto-Eunuco Mitchell dedicated to protecting his people from aggressive slavers. A film about Spartacus seems highly inevitable as well.

2) How absolute is the First Amendment in the DOD USA? You do mention that there are reformists and closet abolitionists who work to make the system more humane and refuse to personally own slaves such as Cordell Hull and advocates of slave rebellion probably could be prosecuted under "incitement" grounds. However, are there radical abolitionist organizations and individuals who urge for gradual and peaceful but full emancipation of all individuals in bondage and perhaps even granting them the rights of citizenship? Are such groups allowed freedom of speech and assembly? Certainly, they will be very well outside of the mainstream and it would about as socially acceptable to be an abolitionist as it would have been to be an open communist in OTL 1950s USA. They would probably be blacklisted from the major professions and the universities as well as be unelectable to political office but I would hope that those few lonely voices are permitted to exist.

3) Given you mention that the President of the *United States in 1949 is a historical figure and he's mentioned as pursuing a "Good Neighbour" policy, is the US President Cordell Hull? Does Nielsen only become President in the 1950s?

4) In the Fox and the Jackal, why did Leydon's childhood friend Annabelle flee from New England to South Africa? Did this occur during the Vitalist dictatorship or Mullins's later overthrow?

5) What does the New England party system look like under the Commonwealth? I suspect the Socialist Alliance may be in for a long period of dominance similar to the Swedish Social Democrats OTL. I could see a lot of the more left wing Radicals joining the Socialists to create a big-tent left party while also simultaneously moderating the Socialist agenda. The opposition will be an odd coalition of more moderate Radicals, Federalists, and even ex-Vitalists. Its somewhat hard to see them work together after the Mullins dictatorship, so perhaps the Right will split into a centrist/center-right pro-business Radical Republican Party and a post-Vitalist National Party. Its possible the New England government will place restrictions on explicitly Vitalist parties but given Mullins was overthrown by coup there could very well be a hardcore of continuing Vitalist supporters of around 20-25% of population. Wonder what happens to other high ranking Vitalist figures such as Rundle and Ingersoll.

6) How common is capital punishment in DOD? I certainly don't see the United States abolishing it anytime soon and if anything, given the Southern dominance of the US, it will probably be even more commonly used than in OTL 1940s and 1950s US. A few of the northern states such as Iowa and Wilkinson may never have allowed it as was the case OTL in those states. No idea how commonly capital punishment was used in Vitalist New England but its very likely that it ends up abolished under the Commonwealth, at least after the sentences for Vitalist era figures have been passed. I suspect Germany will retain it for much longer than OTL without there being a reaction to Nazism.

7) How big is the American Socialist Party? They are not mentioned as being present at the Third Socialist International in the 1880s but it seems likely to me that there is at least a small Socialist Party consisting of recent immigrants, some labour union types, and more leftier ex-Populists. Incidentally how strong are labour unions in the DOD US and do they tend to favour the Unionists or Democrats?

8) Some thoughts regarding urban demographics in New England and the US:

-You mention New York City being even larger TTL than in OTL but I'm not sure if that will be the case. NYC isn't the megapolitan cultural, financial, and immigrant center of the United States like it was and is OTL, even if New England gets a disproportionate share of immigration to North America. In particular, the Jewish population of NYC will be rather smaller than OTL's population at mid century given the substantially improved conditions for Jews in continental Europe.

-Given the more southerly orientation of the US, I expect the cities of the Mississippi and Ohio River Valleys to be much more populous here. In particular, Louisville and Cincinnati may be slowly merging into each other to create a huge conurbation. However, given the huge utility of the Great Lakes, cities like Erie and Cleveland will be pretty significant despite being on the border of New England. Ditto with Pittsburgh given its a very logical site for the steel industry.

-Cities along the Gulf Coast will generally be larger given its status as an American lake in this world. Pensacola will be a massive military city and *Houston (dunno what TTL name is) will be booming.

 

[Marius Mazzini]

Out of boredom I wrote an outline of an AH within an AH in the vein of Grasshopper Lies of Heavy called "Generations of Grief", which is an alternate history based on the premise that Thomas Jefferson doesn't die in 1809 and New England stays within the Union from the perspective of someone living in the DOD TL. It is not exactly by an alternate Jared and closer in its structure/background to something like Sobel's For Want of a Nail:

The 19th Century is broadly similar to OTL for the United States, with growing sectional rivalry between the free and slave states accompanied by rapid industrialization and population growth. The details often differ however. An alt Mexican-American War results in the annexation of not just California and Texas but the northern third of OTL Mexico including Baja and Sonora. A Civil War happens between North and South eventually with Lincoln at the helm of the Union and Jefferson Davis leading a secessionist Southern Confederacy. However, abolitionist sentiment is moderately stronger than in OTL in parts of the Upper South and Virginia never fully secedes (instead having an intrastate civil war similar to OTL Missouri and Kentucky) resulting in Robert E. Lee commanding the Union army. The British are rather more openly pro-Confederacy in TTL permanently damaging Anglo-American relations. Reconstruction is substantially more successful and black Americans political rights at least are guaranteed in the American South, even if social equality has to wait for another day. This is accompanied by a substantial migration of ex-Confederates to Latin America and the British Empire, especially South Africa and Australia. There is also rather more immigration of freedmen to Liberia (which still moves to the more salubrious clime of OTL Namibia after high death rates in the tropical environment of OTL Liberia) though nothing on the scale of the DOD TL. Cuba eventually ends up annexed to the US though Puerto Rico is an independent country.

Instead of the US, it is Russia that becomes the bastion of slavery and aggressive expansionism in this world. Serfdom is never abolished and instead increasingly modernized to adapt to urban and industrial conditions. Moreover, Czarist politics becomes autocratic due to leftist violence similar to OTL. Russia’s expansion into Central Asia is accompanied by enserfment of much of the native population as Russia embraces a vaguely Pan-Slavist and Eurasianist ideologies to protect the world from the liberal, decadent West. Germany still unifies but is somewhat smaller than in the DOD TL, not including the Netherlands or Switzerland and instead is a Prusso-Austrian condominium. France is a bit stronger than in either OTL or DOD, with better demographic growth and no humiliation quite equivalent to 1871.
Anglo-American relations remain bad for most of the 19th Century due to perceived British interference in Latin America, which the US increasingly sees itself as the protector of from foreign imperialism. Eventually an alt-North American War breaks out in the early 20th Centuiry over British border claims with Venezuela. Without Britain’s New England ally, a much more industrialized US easily overruns most of Canada and inflicts multiple defeats on the Royal Navy forcing Britain to the peace table where she loses most of her territories in the Americas except for some Caribbean positions and the Falkland Islands. Much of western Canada is directly annexed to the US while the rest is split between an Anglophone Canadian Republic and Quebec.

Russia continues to industrialize while strengthening and elaborating on its serf system which similar to the DOD US system comes to embrace multiple categories of unfreedom, some of which are better off than others. Brutal forced draft industrialization programs occur, though somewhat more slowly than OTL’s Stalinist crash industrialization. Any kind of liberal or radical politics are eventually fully ground out by the Okhrana. Russia remains on the sidelines while Europe divides between an Anglo-German alliance against a French-led alliance that has some backing from the US.

Eventually a global war breaks out when the alliance of Britain and Germany gamble on being to partition the Continent between them before the US can intervene in substantial numbers. France is overrun though the French government flees to North Africa to continue the fight. The US ends up declaring war but mostly can do little but fight in North Africa. The slow advance from Algiers to the Suez Canal becomes one of the most legendary military campaigns in US history under “Scipio Americanus”, otherwise known as Rodney Ironfist. Continental Europe appears impregnable until Russia launches a surprise simultaneous invasion of eastern Europe, the Middle East, and northeast Asia. Constantinople and the Dardanelle Straits are overrun as is Persia, Korea and much of China. Germany puts up a strong fight in eastern Europe but this distraction finally allows the US to launch an invasion of southern France and begin a slow slog into continental Europe. An American fleet annihilates much of the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine in a massive battle west of Ireland, provoking an antiwar socialist uprising in Britain while much of her colonial empire breaks away. The British monarch flees to Australia and a provisional Second Commonwealth of Britain is proclaimed under “National Protector” Oswald Mosley. Britain becomes a US cobelligerent and by allowing Britain to be used as a staging point, the US is finally able to invade northern France and then push into Germany proper. This is not a moment too soon as by this point Russia has taken both Berlin and Vienna with the goal of reaching the Rhine. Russia takes Hamburg but US-French forces are able to seize the Rhine-Ruhr area before the Russians do. In the east, the US seizes insular East Asia including Hainan and Formosa from Japan and forces them to an armistice. Due to substantial native Chinese resistance, Russian forces eventually halt at the Yangtze River. South Africa secedes from the British Empire and under an ex-Confederate/Afrikaner dominated government proclaims its alliance with Russia. Similarly, Hindu nationalists outmaneuver more secular and liberal activists in India and proclaim a republic that will be based upon the “ancient and harmonious caste system”.

After the war, the world is in a two way Cold War between the United States led Alliance for Democracy and the Russian dominated Holy League. The United States combines the best traits of DOD New England and the US-ie democratic and egalitarian commitments without a moralistic, puritanical streak (this US never has prohibition for instance nor will it ever ban marijuana) and by the 1950s has become a moderate social democracy with a very strong labour movement and generous welfare state. Latin America is much more prosperous and democratic compared to OTL and are members of an American hemispheric military alliance cum free trade bloc. The US alliance in western Europe is led by France which is more confident without the grim experience of trench warfare or the humiliation of the surrender in 1940. It is a France that is confident enough to given full citizenship to all Algerian Muslims as part of its incorporation into France. The Free German Republic is a French-US ally and making a rapid economic recovery. The socialist British Commonwealth cooperates with the US but is not fully integrated into the alliance system due to its radical politics which is often just as condemnatory of US imperialism as it is of Russian imperialism. Russia now controls the Straits and has turned most of Eastern Europe into puppet states and allies. Vast numbers of Persians, Germans etc. are being incorporated into its serf system. Its major global allies are the Indian Republic and the Union of South Africa, both of which are adapting similar practices under different names.

 

[Nevermore]

2) How absolute is the First Amendment in the DOD USA? You do mention that there are reformists and closet abolitionists who work to make the system more humane and refuse to personally own slaves such as Cordell Hull and advocates of slave rebellion probably could be prosecuted under "incitement" grounds. However, are there radical abolitionist organizations and individuals who urge for gradual and peaceful but full emancipation of all individuals in bondage and perhaps even granting them the rights of citizenship? Are such groups allowed freedom of speech and assembly? Certainly, they will be very well outside of the mainstream and it would about as socially acceptable to be an abolitionist as it would have been to be an open communist in OTL 1950s USA. They would probably be blacklisted from the major professions and the universities as well as be unelectable to political office but I would hope that those few lonely voices are permitted to exist.

The United States, I would imagine, is liable to get even more authoritarian over time, not less; freedom of speech is still likely to be true but how much you get to say before you get reported to the authorities depends on where you live and this will be worse once the equivalent of international broadcasting comes about, to say nothing of the Internet. Death squads are something which have been used, for example, and enslaving even people that Americans ostensibly saw as their moral and political equals (i.e., white Canadians) is something that was eventually accepted as necessary to defend the security of the nation. Even if New England tries to thaw its very icy relationship with the U.S. while it rebuilds from Vitalist mismanagement, it has an ideological drive to try to use abolitionist efforts in its intelligence operations that it didn't necessarily possess before due to the state's socialist leanings. The Green Scare or whatever it's called is likely to be hundreds of times worse ITTL. Not only is New England a place with historical enmity working against them, but the fact that it speaks the same language means that any transnational literature will be scrutinized to the nth degree. It would be very easy to see how various departments can smear otherwise well-meaning Americans who want to see slavery done away with as Yankee, Australian, or any other sort of foreign-backed saboteur. The smart ones will buy one-way tickets while those that aren't so smart will find themselves sent off to some unnamed black site.

5) What does the New England party system look like under the Commonwealth? I suspect the Socialist Alliance may be in for a long period of dominance similar to the Swedish Social Democrats OTL. I could see a lot of the more left wing Radicals joining the Socialists to create a big-tent left party while also simultaneously moderating the Socialist agenda. The opposition will be an odd coalition of more moderate Radicals, Federalists, and even ex-Vitalists. Its somewhat hard to see them work together after the Mullins dictatorship, so perhaps the Right will split into a centrist/center-right pro-business Radical Republican Party and a post-Vitalist National Party. Its possible the New England government will place restrictions on explicitly Vitalist parties but given Mullins was overthrown by coup there could very well be a hardcore of continuing Vitalist supporters of around 20-25% of population. Wonder what happens to other high ranking Vitalist figures such as Rundle and Ingersoll.

It would appear the way New England's government is set up is probably going to get a massive overhaul; we've gotten hints of this, like the governor-general seemingly being what amounts to a largely inoffensive figurehead. A multi-party parliamentary democracy in the style of Europe or one of the Restored Empire nations would probably be viewed as a safeguard from letting something like the Mullins regime happen again. There's also probably the perceived benefit of further casting away lingering American influence on their politics from New England's founding, though that's less practical and more for nationalistic reasons. That said, if there is a downside, it could go either way in regards to giving the armed forces permission to remove people perceived as too threatening to the Commonwealth. Now that a coup has happened, and its benefit was a net positive from what we can glean, that genie can't be put back into its bottle.

My personal head canon was always that the Vitalists ran away with their tails between their legs, assuming they didn't get caught, and left for Liberia ala the Nazis going to South America following WWII. I suspect they'd have golden parachutes when they got to Wilkinston anyway since Duvalier was so cozy with them beforehand.

 

[27zipski]

this will be worse once the equivalent of international broadcasting comes about, to say nothing of the Internet.

Am I the only one who has it figured out that there was a catastrophic nuclear exchange in the late 50s or early 60s which destroyed everyone but Russia?

 

[Marius Mazzini]

Am I the only one who has figured out that there was a catastrophic nuclear exchange in the late 50s or early 60s which destroyed everyone but Russia?

What makes you suggest this? The lack of publications after the 1950s in the TL?

 

[27zipski]

What makes you suggest this? The lack of publications after the 1950s in the TL?

That and the hints at escalating tensions in the flash forwards. The "great war" ended with several powers grossly overextended and with way more unresolved loose ends than OTL WW2 so a rematch is very much on the table.

 

[Lascaris]

That and the hints at escalating tensions in the flash forwards. The "great war" ended with several powers grossly overextended and with way more unresolved loose ends than OTL WW2 so a rematch is very much on the table.

The reason there are no publications after 1950 is that, the novel was supposed to be taking place sometime after 1950. Or at least that was the plan I understand.