Decades of Darkness WI: New York doesn't secede?

In Jared's Decades of Darkness, New York chooses to secede with New England after US forces enter the state, violating it's neutrality. What would've happened if the United States respected New York's neutrality, not wanting to alienate any further states? It's highly probable that New England would still win their independence, but what would happen after?
 
In Jared's Decades of Darkness, New York chooses to secede with New England after US forces enter the state, violating it's neutrality. What would've happened if the United States respected New York's neutrality, not wanting to alienate any further states? It's highly probable that New England would still win their independence, but what would happen after?

I think it's possible that slavery will not survive in the US. New York adds a populous free state and Pennsylvania's attempted secession is also prevented.
 
I think it's possible that slavery will not survive in the US. New York adds a populous free state and Pennsylvania's attempted secession is also prevented.
But would the added free states of New York and New Jersey be enough to prevent the spread of slavery across the United State's new territories, to the point where slave states clearly outweigh free states?
 
In Jared's Decades of Darkness, New York chooses to secede with New England after US forces enter the state, violating it's neutrality. What would've happened if the United States respected New York's neutrality, not wanting to alienate any further states? It's highly probable that New England would still win their independence, but what would happen after?

I think it's possible that slavery will not survive in the US. New York adds a populous free state and Pennsylvania's attempted secession is also prevented.

It's an interesting question: I honestly haven't read the TL in a while, but I'd think that, hypothetically at least, it might have had some real knock on effects in the long run, as there'd be at least one more powerful free state still staying in the Union(and maybe two more added on if the partition of New York were to still occur).

Although it's definitely true that DoD, as originally written, was supposed to be an "American Draka" type TL more than anything(after all, I don't think that it would hurt to point out that slavery surviving well into the 20th Century, and even seemingly hardly declining by then at that, as in the real TL, wasn't exactly terribly plausible, and required a fairly heavy amount of steering to get there.), in a hypothetical alternate *DoD that had focused a bit more on hard plausibility, I'd be inclined to think that while slavery might indeed survive a fair bit longer, it would still ultimately begin to fizzle out in, say, the late 19th Century, maybe at the beginning of the 20th Century, even with N.Y. + N.J. also breaking away as in the real TL; and with N.Y. and N.J. remaining, that timetable only moves forward.

(Then again, though, I should point out that, regarding both of the above comments, what could have happened is only one reader's speculation: it would be interesting to hear what Jared himself has to say on this scenario should he decide to drop by)

BTW, this does happen to remind me of a fan spin-off map that Ares96 did a few years ago, that went into a fair bit of detail regarding how things might have developed differently(I forget the PoD, though). I'll see if I can find it so I can post it again.
 
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No NY/NJ in New England also equals American Great Lakes, more likely that not. Such a set up does lend itself towards a slower version of OTL's slavery debate, short of other PODs. Given such an early DoD POD though it's worth asking if the other early-mid DoD developments occur. Do we still get mega-Germany and Russia-that-doesn't-do-as-horribly-as-possible? A roughly similar OTL US/British Empire dealing with those behemoths would be an interesting scenario.
 
No NY/NJ in New England also equals American Great Lakes, more likely that not. Such a set up does lend itself towards a slower version of OTL's slavery debate, short of other PODs. Given such an early DoD POD though it's worth asking if the other early-mid DoD developments occur..

Well, yeah-for instance, no assassination of Willie Mangum, for one, arguably one of the most important *American post-Jefferson PODs.

Do we still get mega-Germany and Russia-that-doesn't-do-as-horribly-as-possible? A roughly similar OTL US/British Empire dealing with those behemoths would be an interesting scenario.

Erm...Russia didn't just not do horribly, they were actually pretty heavily wanked towards the end, as was Germany: That said, though, I agree otherwise: a TL with a mega-Russia & Super Germany versus a U.S. and British Empire similar to out own would indeed be a fascinating read, especially when a *Cold War develops in the modern era-the major question is, when might the best POD be?
 
Erm...Russia didn't just not do horribly, they were actually pretty heavily wanked towards the end, as was Germany

While Germany did about as well as it could've with an 1809 POD I don't really see what you mean about Russia being wanked. Most of what went right for Russia was just not getting invaded repeatedly and losing 30+ million people. Even its democratisation was still pretty rudimentary until fairly late. Though actually on reading your previous comment and being reminded of some of the older comments from the TL I suspect there is little point in debating this further.
 
While Germany did about as well as it could've with an 1809 POD I don't really see what you mean about Russia being wanked.

I'd actually been intending to Russia's annexation of Tibet and implied (in several of the book excerpts) future annexation of North China, though I apologize if that wasn't clear.

(Edit: that said, though, I'll just try to keep my criticism of the original TL to a minimum from here on out if it makes other participants happy. ;))

Most of what went right for Russia was just not getting invaded repeatedly and losing 30+ million people. Even its democratisation was still pretty rudimentary until fairly late.

Well, okay, and that's a fair point; I'll just leave it there so we don't go too off topic. (OK, I'll admit it: sometimes I do have that unfortunate habit of veering a bit off course before I correct myself. )

In any case, I finally found that @Ares96 map I was looking for, and I thought I'd repost it here, complete with description:

Ares96:

I actually thought I was going to be the first one doing this idea, until I saw Otherworld's. However, this should hopefully be different enough to still be interesting.

The basic premise of this is that of Decades of Darkness - Jefferson's death in 1809 leads to New England seceding, supported by the British, at which point the US begins the *War of 1812. However, ITTL Rufus King isn't shot, leading to less Federalist sympathy within New York, and so the *US are able to keep the west of New York, as well as New York City itself. With two more free states in the Union, the slavery debate still grows into a major issue, and Wilkinson finds himself having to compromise over Missouri's entry into the Union, with it becoming a free state on the condition that no other free states are to be admitted south of its northern border. In addition, Illinois and Indiana never repeal their free-soil status.

Later on, Jackson still comes to power, and the War of 1833 begins as in DoD. However, there is no Pennsylvania Rebellion, and so the *US is more successful, and eventually they are able to regain almost all of the Northwest Territory. A second compromise is now reached, whereby all of the new territory in the Midwest becomes free soil on the condition that the recent gains in Texas (which only go up to the Rio Grande ITTL, as Jackson sees no need to press further claims to restore *American prestige) are recognised as slave territory. As such, to compensate for the three free states admitted in the Great Lakes region, the three states of Houston, Tejas and New Mexico are admitted from the Texas-Coahuila Territory. Since the war is over quicker, Jackson doesn't seek a third term, and Hugh Lawson White gets elected for the Democrats.

White gets reelected in 1840, but dies only months afterwards, succeeded by his Vice-President, James Polk. Polk, in turn, is defeated in 1844 by George Dallas, who is succeeded in 1848 by Lewis Cass. Cass wages war against Mexico, same as in DoD, but due to less disorganisation in Mexico (the less disastrous Texian revolution leads to the Emperor remaining in power), only the OTL Mexican Cession is gained post-war.

When Cass signs an act into law that makes all of the Mexican Cession slave territory, in violation of the *Missouri Compromise (since parts of Utah Territory protrude north of the compromise line), the North is in outrage, and Congress agrees on a compromise that makes absolutely no one happy: California north of the 35th parallel is admitted as a free state, with the rest becoming a slave state and the Utah and Washington (Arizona and New Mexico west of the Rio Grande) territories remaining slave. To help sell this to the South, a Fugitive Slave Act is signed into law, which the Northern abolitionists come to despise.

Cass wins reelection in 1852, but steps down in 1856. The election that follows is turbulent indeed, as Jefferson Davis of the Democrats faces off against Cass's Vice-President, Sam Houston, and William Seward of the Freedom Party. Davis wins the election despite not having received a single electoral vote from the free states, much to the chagrin of the North, who realise that their interests will never be seen to in the present Union.


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Around the New Year of 1857, nine states secede from the union, forming the Federated States, and choosing Abraham Lincoln of Michigan as their president. Since secession cannot legally take place without the approval of Congress, the states decide to be proactive, attacking the armoury at Harpers Ferry to try to start a slave revolt and tie up the Union army; this partially succeeds, as the Union army garrison is beaten back, and the weapons of the armoury distributed among the slaves on nearby plantations. After this, three more states secede, and the American Civil War begins in earnest.

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Interesting idea, indeed, IMHO.
 
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