Death of Spanish royal family while under arrest in France - who reigns?

let's say some overly zealous French Republicans, some mayhem by people clamoring for the return of Charles IV of Spain during French occupation, and perhaps too much wine, combined to cause the murder of the Spanish royal family while they were under house arrest in Napoleonic France.

Because of Salic Law, who's left? Ferdinand VII is dead,so is Charles IV and also Ferdinand's brothers. Ferdinand of Naples and Sicily (later Two Sicilies), Charles IV's brother, I think, is around from what I can tell, but a treaty prevented Charles III of Spain from having all three crowns at once; would Ferdinand be bound?

His son, Francis could, I suppose, be abdicated to in Naples and Sicily...but then wouldn't the same crisis happen again ina few years upon his death when Francis inherited? Unless Leopold wasn't held inc ustody by France, it doesn't say in his Wikipedia article.

Of course, then, you could argue that Ferdinand VIII, as he'd be termed, could do another Pragmatic Sanction to let a sister rule. But, Charles IV's oldest sister, Carlota, was also Queen of Portugal, if I'm reading this right (it's confusing, especially with all these cousins marrying each other.) So, if he does a Pragmatic Sanction, wouldn't she automatically get the nod, thus creating concerns over another Iberian union?

this might happen in some form, though with a little extra (I'd like to extend the chaos a bit since the Napoleonic Wars end early, maybe a CArlist War type situation), in "Created Equal," as I have the U.S. to 1820 and Europe to 1812. And if work piles up too much after vacation, if I have time I might just post what I have and stop, just becasue I don't recall seeinga TL where this happens. But, it does seem possible.
 
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Killing the whole extended royal family looks a bit like... overkill, but well, let's roll with that.

Charlotte would step and claim the throne for sure. Of course the British wouldn't let the slightest chance of a reunion of the Spanish and Portuguese thrones in a million years and I doubt the Portuguese would go against them or care too much even if they could anyway, so they'll press in behalf of a claim from the king of Sicily (there is another sister of Charles IV somewhere in Italy but she is under French captivity too anyway). Now, if they are still butthurt about the prospect of a Sicilian-Spanish reunion they could press Ferdinand of Sicily to abdicate one of the thrones and/or name different heirs in each, since he already had two adult sons at the time. Given the situation in both places they'll be listened.
 
Thanks; did they have the daughters; sisters, too, or just the sons inc aptivity? I thought it'd just be Ferdinand VII, Charles IV, and a few of Ferdinand's brothers who would be killed; 4-5 people. A riot could do that. (I was thinking just the ones in Valencay, that is.)

This is the thing that confuses me about Salic Law - since I read that Philip V established it I thought that no female could inherit, or any issue from a female. (Till the Pragmatic Sanction in 1830 - but can you have a Pragmatic Sanction where no monarch is around to do it?)

They sure did have a lot more daughters than sons, though, in general at times. (Also quite a few seem to have died in c hildhood. But that happened back then, I know, a lot - and probably more with the intermarriage at times.)
 
Thanks; did they have the daughters; sisters, too, or just the sons inc aptivity? I thought it'd just be Ferdinand VII, Charles IV, and a few of Ferdinand's brothers who would be killed; 4-5 people. A riot could do that.

This is the thing that confuss me about Salic Law - since I read that Philip V established it I thought that no female could inherit. (Till the Pragmatic Sanction in 1830 - but can you have a Pragmatic Sanction where no monarch is around to do it?)

Ferdinand, Charles IV, the Count of Molina (Carlist: Charles V), and their mother, IIRC. At Valençay. The majority of their children were grown up. They may of had a few younger ones though.

Before Philip V, women could inherit. After all, the Bourbons had their claim through Louis XIV's wife. Charles IV actually introduced the Pragmatic Sanction in 1789, it was just never made public or introduced to the Cortes. Ferdinand IV eventually promulgated it under pressure from his wife.
 
Thanks; so Charlotte/Carlota will have some support but lots of opposition, Ferdinand of Sicily would be around...who would the Cortes support who might be liberal enough? I'm thinking they might have to pick a third person, although they might just flee to Mexico in the end, too.

This also ends up butterflying Spencer Perciival's assassination, too, which will be interesting for the British. Indeed, because of some events which take place around the time his assassain went home OTL, his boat might not be able to make it back from Russia. Which could cause him to become very upset at someone else, but I'm not sure yet. All I know is, I'm surpsied we don't see more Napoleonic era TLs,
 
Well, the Cortes was not yet in a position where they'd support someone 'liberal.' Despite these being men who would later lead the 1823 revolution, they still supported Ferdinand IV till he showed his true colors. Carlota may have some support, but I don't know... she's in Brazil, anyways. There was a popular movement that sought to give her sovereignty of La Plata whilst Ferdinand was incapacitated. She may be keen enough to spread it throughout the colonies, but I don't know. She wasn't terribly brilliant, but I think she may fight for awhile to be Queen (even if it doesn't happen).
 
Well, the Cortes was not yet in a position where they'd support someone 'liberal.' Despite these being men who would later lead the 1823 revolution, they still supported Ferdinand IV till he showed his true colors. Carlota may have some support, but I don't know... she's in Brazil, anyways. There was a popular movement that sought to give her sovereignty of La Plata whilst Ferdinand was incapacitated. She may be keen enough to spread it throughout the colonies, but I don't know. She wasn't terribly brilliant, but I think she may fight for awhile to be Queen (even if it doesn't happen).

Thanks; true, if she's not terribly bright she also probably wont' know when to give up quite as well.:)

Also, Ferdinand may listen eventually, but might want to keep all three crowns (including Naples and Sicily) for a time. Although it would be hard to reign in each successfully, if Charlotte's the only other candidate, and enough countries are against her he could think, "I can keep all three and have no problems, because who else will they support?"
 
Thanks; true, if she's not terribly bright she also probably wont' know when to give up quite as well.:)

Also, Ferdinand may listen eventually, but might want to keep all three crowns (including Naples and Sicily) for a time. Although it would be hard to reign in each successfully, if Charlotte's the only other candidate, and enough countries are against her he could think, "I can keep all three and have no problems, because who else will they support?"

His nephew Infante Peter Charles?
 

Thanks. Could work if his death is butterflied away - or make things weirder if it isn't. If his health wasn't good he could always die at a more convenient time. Or Ferdinand could guess...well, there are lots of thoughts to consider as I plan this out, but one thing's for sure. The start might be American, but there will be some fun butterflies in Europe, too.
 
Thanks. Could work if his death is butterflied away - or make things weirder if it isn't. If his health wasn't good he could always die at a more convenient time. Or Ferdinand could guess...well, there are lots of thoughts to consider as I plan this out, but one thing's for sure. The start might be American, but there will be some fun butterflies in Europe, too.

Or Ferdinand abdicates Naples and Sicily in favoure of Peter Charles and his issue should he have some to discourage any opposition. Simple and more probable.

And not without precedent. as he ( a younger son) received Naples and Sicily when Charles III inherited Spain and the Empire itself with elder brother Charles as Prince of Asturias.

Ferdinand is not exactly a bright bulb either but he did have a very bright and ambitious wife in Maria Karolina.
 
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Or Ferdinand abdicates Naples and Sicily in favoure of Peter Charles and his issue should he have some to discourage any opposition. Simple and more probable.

And not without precedent. as he ( a younger son) received Naples and Sicily when Charles III inherited Spain and the Empire itself with elder brother Charles as Prince of Asturias.

Ferdinand is not exactly a bright bulb either but he did have a very bright and ambitious wife in Maria Karolina.

Okay, thanks; that's a little easier and less complicated.
 
Ferdinand, Charles IV, the Count of Molina (Carlist: Charles V), and their mother, IIRC. At Valençay. The majority of their children were grown up. They may of had a few younger ones though.

Also Prince Francisco de Paula (i.e. the little one of Charles IV's sons) and Charles IV's younger brother Antonio and his wife. Could be even more.
 
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