Death of a Republic (A monarchical USA timeline)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Schnozzberry, Jan 26, 2017.

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How is the timeline so far?

  1. It's good

    176 vote(s)
    65.7%
  2. It's ok

    59 vote(s)
    22.0%
  3. It's bad

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  4. It's really bad

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  5. It's gone to the Alien Space Bats

    29 vote(s)
    10.8%
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  1. Herr Frage Jesus Christ Is In Heaven

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    May the Crown of Saint Stephen be born anew upon a Magyar king!
     
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  2. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    I hope so too, but I also want Republican Austria to be a great power. Though it could probably pull that off with just Bohemia and Austria Proper...
     
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  3. Alpha-King98760 Aku's most favorite assassin, babe!

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    I just hope there’s no Austrian jacobins.
     
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  4. Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    A House of Lies.jpg


    But, the update is done, a day late. The biggest problem I had was that I kinda had to trim it down a bit, in its current form it is still the longest update yet, but it was even longer and it was to the point that I just had to cut it for time and send a good chunk of it to the next update. If that's why this update seems kinda choppy, that's the exact reason why.
    But, first, I should respond to comments.

    As much as I would love to make Ergot be responsible for the Austrian Revolution, that seems just a bit too much.

    Hungary won't be willingly joining the Revolution with Austria, but an independent Kingdom on the border with a revolutionary state might be in a spot of danger.

    Well, I don't think that could ever happen. As long as a Habsburg breathes, Hungary is doomed to be ruled by either them or no King at all.

    Don't worry, we don't have Jacobins. We have something far worse: The Schottes.
     
  5. Threadmarks: Rouge Rogues and Rot Mutts

    Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    “Little by little, the old world crumbled, and not once did the king imagine that some of the pieces might fall on him.”
    --Jennifer Donnelly


    Depending on the country you are born in, the meaning of colours in politics varies greatly. The colour red, for example, is associated with Rot politics here in the UWCR, but in France and Spain, red is the colour of the Rouge politics. Of course, the terms Rot and Rouge themselves also mean red, each term being lifted from their French and German origins respectively, so in some ways red represents the whole political spectrum in English. This is a direct result of turbulent end of the Eighteenth century…

    --Professor Nathaniel Smit

    As the Duc de Broglie and the Conseillères army beat their retreat back south, the Comte de Custine and the loyalist army hounded them every mile, rarely being drawn out into open battle. When the loyalists did wage proper battle with the Conseillères, it was a victory for the loyalists every time. However, even as the Conseillères suffered defeats in the second Battle of Troyes as well as at Montbard, Beaunne and Tournus, the Conseillères were able to slowly reinforce their army as they approached their de facto capital in Lyon, and on May 16th they were able to hold against the loyalists in the Battle of Saint-Oyen (which actually took place in the nearby town of Mercey), albeit with severe losses.

    With both the Loyalist and Conseillères’ main assaults on each other stalling, the war on the western coast of France began to grow in prominence. France’s west coast was held less firmly by both Paris and Lyon than the center and, outside of the northwest where the Breton revolt was underway, had managed to stay relatively neutral in the civil war. This peace was not to last forever as the Conseillères fell back, the Pretender Louis Philippe managed to wrest total control over the Conseil and prepared to launch a new campaign on the western coast. In contrast to the Conseil’s plan to achieve total victory over the loyalists in a decisive military action, Louis Philippe planned to secure international support for his regime and planned to secure a decisive victory in the west to serve as a sign to the foreign powers that the Conseillères could see victory.

    Unfortunately for both the loyalists and the Conseillères, the Catholic church’s public break with the Bourbon regime in Paris provoked the people of the western coast of France, particularly within the province of Poitou. While the province was ostensibly under the control of Paris, a number of Poitevin ultracatholics had risen in a petite-guerre uprising. The revolt was perceived by the loyalists to be a minor affair in comparison to the neighboring Breton revolt, the Conseillères intended to exploit this to the fullest as the largest number of petite-guerre rebels in the province had formed the pro-Conseillères Catholic and Royal Army of Poitou. Largely unknown to both the Conseillères and loyalists however, a section of the Poitevin petite-guerre rebels were even more ultracatholic and had formed a separate rebel group, the Most Catholic and Christian Army of the Poitou which rejected both Kings.

    Throughout the remainder of May, June and July, Louis Philippe oversaw the formation of the army to take the west coast, a process that went relatively smoothly. However, as the army was on the verge of departing, the Conseil stuck its nose into the whole affair and forced Louis Philippe to accept André Boniface Louis Riqueti de Mirabeau as commander of the army. Mirabeau had some experience, having served as a colonel in the American Revolutionary War, but was a political choice as Mirabeau was an extreme conservative. This move by the Conseil didn’t doom the coastal campaign from the start but it was a certain hindrance to the campaign when it got underway on August 6th.

    The coastal campaign saw tremendous success throughout August, driving up the French coast swiftly. During this time, Conseillères diplomats began to reach out to Europe, attempting to achieve recognition of Louis Philippe's Kingship and foreign allies to help in the fight. Furthermore, Conseillères went out to try to secure control in France’s colonies in the hopes of securing their economy. The Conseillères saw no success in their diplomatic effects, being met with cold, pragmatic neutrality from Prussia, overt hostility from Spain, Portugal and Austria, and total dismissal by Great Britain. While both Spain and Austria rejected the Conseillères due to dynastic affairs, the general sentiment towards the Conseillères was that they were legacies of Europe’s Medieval past.

    ...the reactionary diplomats were simply ignored by the Court of St. James, which led to the papers in London mocking the “Rogue Rouges of France.” The Morning Herald was the first known source of the term being used to describe non-French reactionaries when the Herald referred to the supporters of William Pitt the Younger as “Britain’s own Rouges...”
    --Professor Nathaniel Smit

    As the Conseillères Army approached province of Poitou, the Catholic and Royal Army rose up en masse, seizing the coastal city of La Rochelle (which wasn’t actually in Poitou) on September 9th. Two days later, a triumphant Mirabeau and his army paraded into the city amidst cheers of the townsfolk. Unfortunately for Mirabeau and the Conseillères, their entry into Poitou set scores upon scores of men flocking into the ranks of the Most Catholic and Christian Army (MCCA) as the Poitevin people sought to drive the war away from their lands. On September 16th, the MCCA attacked and seized the capital of the province, Poitiers. While the Poitevin people might have wanted the war away from their homes, this action plunged the formerly peaceful province into war.

    In Paris, the news of the Conseillères advance up the coast prompted frustration from King Louis and the Estates-General. While the loyalists were in the process of raising their own army to counter the Mirabeau, Brigadier General Joseph Marie Servan de Gerbey proposed a plan to Premier Joseph Guillotin in the hopes of advancing his own military career. Servan’s Plan was to supply the MCCA in order to bog down the Conseillères in Poitou and instead of having the army that was being assembled fight in the west, they would instead reinforce Comte de Custine in the south. After the Battle of Saint-Oyen, Custine had advanced only slightly further, having been forced to lay siege to the Conseillères who were fortified in the city of Mâcon. Servan proposed that the extra troops, along with the extra supply and cannon would allow Custine to break the Conseillères and make the final push for Lyon to end the war. While the idea of supplying a petite-guerre group that was actively fighting against your government seems quite insane, the MCCA was poorly understood in Paris at the time. Servan proposed his plan before September 16th, and prior to the MCCA’s seizure of Poitiers, the MCCA had predominantly fought against the Conseillères and the Catholic and Royal Army, so the loyalists assumed the MCCA was an anti-Conseillères petite-guerre rebel group akin to the other similar groups in the south.

    The Plan was approved by the Premier and King Louis. Servan was put in command of the reinforcements and departed the day before the MCCA’s seizure of Poitiers. Eleven days later, on September 26th, the news of the seizure of Poitiers reached Paris. Parisians and many in the Estates-General cried for blood, accusing Servan of being a traitor which ultimately led to Servan being recalled to Paris and sacked, but the reinforcements weren’t recalled; a quick capture of Lyon would allow for the full might of the French army to be used to suppress the rebellious Poitevin and Bretons.

    On October 7th, the reinforced loyalists would attack Mâcon and successfully push the Conseillères out of the city which gave hope to the loyalists that the war could be over by Christmas. As the loyalists would soon find out however, despite Lyon lacking much in the way of defensive arrangements, Lyon was going to be an extremely tough nut to crack, and the Duc de Broglie wasn’t going to let the city fall easily. Retreating swiftly, the Duc managed to save the bulk of his army for what seemed to be the ultimate battle of the war.

    The day before the Battle of Lyon, Custine addressed his troops, reminding them that this was the last hurdle before victory, commanding his troops to fight for their Country, their God, their King. Broglie too addressed his troops, commanding his soldiers to hold the city for their Country, their God, their Country. The battle itself became a tangle of street to street fighting even as the Lyonnais Provost of the Merchants (de facto Mayor) Louis Tolozan de Montfort attempted to surrender the city to the loyalists. For nine hours, the fighting would devastate the city as the Conseillères and quite a few Lyonnais citizens fought tooth and nail to hold back the loyalists. However, for as hard as the Conseillères fought, Lyon fell. King Louis Phillippe and the Conseil would flee south for Marseilles. Lyon itself was heavily damaged from the war, multiple fires broke out during the fighting which would rage for three days, eventually destroying sixty percent of the city.

    Lyon’s fall didn’t mark the end of the Conseillères as the loyalists had hoped, and with the petite-guerre fighting in the northwest threatening to spread into Normandy, Anjou and Maine were the war to continue to drag on, King Louis began to make peace overtures with the Conseillères. Fortunately for him, King Louis Philippe was perfectly willing to consider a negotiated peace as it had become apparent that the Conseillères could no longer win the war. Thus, on February 14th, 1790, in the town of Vichy, an uneasy peace was established. The region still controlled by the Conseillères, sans the western coast, would be reorganized into the Grand Duchy of Septimania and would continue to be ruled by Louis Philippe who in turn had to swear allegiance to King Louis. It was generally understood by both the new Grand Duc and King Louis that this peace was little more than a glorified ceasefire as its conditions were unacceptable to either side. Indeed, it was less than a week after the Peace of Vichy when French diplomats were sent to Spain to attempt to secure support for when the war against the Conseillères resumed.

    ...ultimately, outside of producing a political term, the Conseillères didn’t have that large of an impact on the world outside of France. This is in contrast with the origin of the political usage of Rot, the most unlikely event of the 18th century: the Austrian Revolution. Now, the Revolution has its roots in the ideas of the Enlightenment and the general growing unrest in Europe during the late 1700s, but many of the direct events which triggered the Revolution lay at the feet of one man: Holy Roman Emperor, Joseph II.

    Emperor Joseph’s policies provoked resentment and anger amongst both the people he governed, his armies and foreign powers. Austria’s entry into the Great Dutch War led to Austria failing to assist Russia in their war against the Turkish Empire, which prompted Russia to launch a retaliatory invasion over Austria’s “betrayal” after Russia lost to Turkey in 1789. Language reforms launched by Joseph stoked anger in the Austrian Netherlands and Hungary which prompted the Austrian Netherlands to revolt in 1787, and Hungary to revolt when Russia invaded in 1790. His military policies led to his armies to suffer terrible casualties as a result of disease, and military spending and shakedowns of the peasantry for foodstuffs for the army toppled the people’s faith in Joseph. Thus, it is hardly surprising that when the army mutinied against the Emperor on July 4th, 1790, Lieutenant Colonel Johann Freiherr von Hiller was able overthrow Emperor Joseph with little resistance and set into motion a chain of events that would reshape Europe forever.

    Of course, this is a good review of the early Austrian Revolution and all, but how does it relate to how Rot became a political term? Well, once von Hiller showed the people that overthrowing the government wouldn’t end the world, the people decided to overthrow him. In the chaos, the Schotte Society seized power and the supporters of the Schottes wore red caps, or Rote Mützen which led to London papers lambasting them as “Rotten Mutts” or “Rot Mutts.” Eventually, just as the supporters of William Pitt were “Britain’s own Rogue Rouges,” supporters of Charles James Fox became known as “Britain’s own Rot Mutts...”

    --Professor Nathaniel Smit
     
  6. TheImperialTheorist To theorize & imagine worlds of possibilities.

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    Great to see another update! How do the Americans react to the events happening in France? Considering their king and the details of the situation leading up to it, I’m willing to believe they have a greater interest in it.

    Also, you forgot to threadmark the update.
     
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  7. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    1790 is before the 2nd or 3rd Partitions of Poland, so Russia must march through the PLC to reach Hungary. Repelling the Russians, meanwhile, would require the mass-conscript armies of Schottist Austria to make at least minimal incursions into Lublin or present-day Western Ukraine.

    The Deluge is going to seem a drizzle indeed.
     
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  8. taxidea Well-Known Member

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    Sep 18, 2017
    This timeline is getting dark and I am loving it. Is it just me or does anarchism seem like it will become bigger in this TL. Also will most countries still be monarchies by present day, or will some Republics form?
     
  9. Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    Hello everyone! Sorry for being slow on the update on this time again, the day after I posted that update, I fled the cold misery of my home and went on a trip to Hawaii. Kinda unexpectedly, I've been without consistent access to the internet so I've missed a bit. I'm back now though, and while I wanted to write a nice Hawaiian update, it's a bit early in the timeline for that. So, instead, the update for today is the final preparation for Austrian Revolution and finally brings everyone's favorite punching bag, Poland, into the timeline!

    Well, first, responses.


    Americans are generally supportive of the French monarchy, first and foremost as supporting their permanent ally. However, one idea that is slowly beginning to form in a few minds in America and France are the ideas of a sort of "League of Liberty" with America and France being global champions of Enlightenment and Freedom.

    Once again, Poland is stuck between an Austrian and Russian dictator. On a more serious note, Poland will see fighting in her borders but less as an attempt to drive Russia back and more as the Austrian revolutionaries spread the Revolution.


    To be totally honest, this timeline only seems dark because of the general focus on America, and America is turning out a lot worse than in OTL.

    Anarchism proper won't have a seriously increased influence, but the near-Anarchism of Hopswoodism will. And while monarchism will remain stronger than OTL, republicanism will rise.
     
  10. Threadmarks: The Bear is Poked

    Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    "Poor Poland, so close to Germany and Russia, and so far from God"
    --King Louis XX

    In 1787, Russia and Austria were in an alliance against the Ottoman Turks. This alliance fell through as Austria refused to honor it when the Great Dutch War broke out. Facing down the Turkish Empire alone wasn’t seen as a problem when the war broke out in August, but the Ottoman Empire smashed through Russian defenses in the border city of Kinburn. During the battle of Kinburn, Alexander Suvorov, the commanding general of the war, would suffer a wound that would become infected, killing the general a month later. A subsequent Ottoman invasion of the Crimean peninsula in September would see success, and by the end of the year, Russia had lost control of almost her entire Black Sea coastline to Turkish occupation. Reeling from the losses, practically the entire Russian Baltic fleet would depart to the Mediterranean to attack the Ottomans in March, 1788.

    Unknowingly, this action practically offered St. Petersburg on a silver platter to Sweden. The Swedish King Gustav III had overthrown the Swedish Riksdag and established himself as autocrat of the nation in 1772, and since this time, the Riksdag had sought to reclaim its power and King Gustav needed something to stabilize his regime. A swift war would no doubt do the trick, and since Russia had gone to war with the Ottomans, the Swedish King had been preparing to launch a surprise attack. However, the Riksdag still held the power to declare an offensive war, blocking Gustav’s ambitions.

    On June 14th, Swedish troops on the border were attacked by soldiers in Russian uniforms. The attack was actually done by Swedish forces in Russian uniforms at the behest of the King, but it nevertheless provided the casus belli necessary for war. King Gustav claimed that Sweden was on the defensive from a Russian onslaught and the Riksdag, outraged at the attack, went ahead with preparations for war.
    The Swedish Baltic Fleet went on the offensive against Russia in early July while troops in Finland prepared both an overland and coastal campaign. The plan was a three pronged attack on St. Petersburg. Meeting almost no resistance, the Swedish Baltic Fleet sailed up the Baltic and on July 20th, the combined forces of the Swedish Fleet and the two armies assaulted the Russian capital. The Battle of St. Petersburg was an unmitigated disaster for Russia. The Swedish declaration of war was unexpected by the Russians, leading to Tsarina Catherine II still being in the capital when the Swedish assault occurred, and ultimately her capture by the Swedish army. While this benefited King Gustav’s original plan of launching a coup against Catherine, Denmark-Norway entered the war on July 15th and rumours of plots against the King began to circulate through Stockholm, forcing peace. Sweden gained massive concessions: Russia was forced to limit her Baltic Fleet by nearly two-thirds, the Kola Peninsula was ceded to Sweden, and two border fortifications were to be dismantled.

    Unfortunately for the Russians, the war against the Ottomans saw no more success. Azov fell on July 26th, placing the entirety of the Russian Black Sea coast under Ottoman control. A Russian attempt to retake the city in September briefly recaptured Azov before the city and army were surrounded by the Ottomans. While the war would continue for seven more months, the Russian army was unable to drive the Ottomans back and on April 28th, 1789, the Treaty of Kiev was signed and Russia lost virtually all of her gains from the previous war in the War of 1768 with the Ottomans, only retaining the previous gains south of the Don River.

    Humiliated and outraged, the Russians began to look for some way to reclaim a modicum of the prestige they had lost. Of all countries, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was in the most danger. For over a century, the Commonwealth’s government had fallen into such disarray that it was referred to as the Polish Anarchy. The Szlachta, the Commonwealth’s equivalent of nobility, held sufficient power as to render the King and the Sejm virtually incapable of governing the state. Powerful members of the Szlachta, the Magnates, were able to rule as near independent monarchs in their own right, and the squabbles of the Magnates were used by foreign powers to leverage influence over Poland-Lithuania. In 1768, Magnates seeking to maintain their powers plunged the Commonwealth into civil war, prompting the Partition in 1772 which cost Poland-Lithuania roughly ⅓ of its land and population to Prussia, Austria and Russia. By 1789, the state of affairs had left the Commonwealth a protectorate of Russia with the executive body of the government, the Permanent Council, being hand-picked by Russia’s Ambassador in Warsaw.

    Russia’s influence over Poland-Lithuania posed an imminent danger for the ailing state as the country’s Sejm was about to launch a campaign of reform which would almost certainly require a loosening, if not complete overthrow, of the Russian yoke. King and Grand Duke Stanisław II, despite having been hand-picked by Tsarina Catherine to govern Poland-Lithuania, had thrown his lot with the reformists. With the Tsarina’s permission, King Stanisław opened a Sejm in 1788. Tsarina Catherine had been hoping that Poland-Lithuania could be transformed into a more useful ally, and might even be able to assist in the war with the Turkish Empire. Instead, the 1788 Sejm was busy planning and enacting reforms which would allow Poland-Lithuania to assert her independence, and was rapidly approaching what would be the point of no return. Having abolished the Permanent Council in 1789, the Sejm was planning on confederating in 1790 which would eliminate Russia’s last opportunity to end the reforms: the liberum veto. The liberum veto allowed any member of the Szlachta to undo the entirety of legislation passed by the Sejm’s current session, and for over a century the liberum veto had been used by the Szlachta to keep Poland-Lithuania from enacting reforms. Whether the veto was enacted by the bribery of a foreign power or out of the Szlachta’s own self interests didn’t truly matter; the current session was utterly null and void. But, with the veto removed, no longer could a single bribed member of the Szlachta exert Russia’s influence; the only way Russia could reassert her total control over Poland-Lithuania would be an invasion.

    King Stanisław knew that even if the Polish-Lithuanian government was seriously strengthened by the Sejm’s reforms, the Commonwealth could not withstand a Russian invasion, and that the Russians would almost certainly invade to reassert her influence over Poland-Lithuania. Therefore, Tsarina Catherine had to be convinced that a stronger Poland-Lithuania could assist Russia against some enemy that Russia would likely have difficulty against alone. And with the Turks and Swedes out of the picture, at least for now, only one country could pose such a threat...
     
  11. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    As appealing as "prestige" might be, Russia's excuse for fighting is honestly pretty piss-poor. I bet its military will be fed up with this war soon enough, unless the Austrians prove to be a really dangerous enemy. Though von Hiller's experience may be a cautionary example for any aspiring military putschists in TTL's future...
    I do wonder if that fire-bird flag will be relevant soon.
     
  12. Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    It certainly isn't going to make the Russian people very happy to have their friends and family be wasted in a foreign land on a seemingly irrelevant matter. The military will remain loyal; the war will be a relatively successful one for Russia.

    The fire-bird will fly, but it needs a bit bigger of a spark.
     
  13. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    I've been thinking about what the Conseilleres remind me of, and recently found it-- the Carlists. Are they based on the Carlists in any way, and will their Rouge successor movements assume Carlist characteristics?
     
  14. Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    I didn't really think of the Carlists when setting up the Conseilleres, I was actually inspired after reading how some members of the nobility were IOTL using the threat of a coup against King Louis to ensure that the debts the crown owed would be paid as France's finances fell apart. In their operations going on, I more find the Conseilleres as being akin to the Polish Szlachta, seeking to preserve noble traditions and freedoms above the actual needs of the state.

    But, a Carlist-esque ideology does fit well with the Conseilleres as well, both want a Catholic and conservative monarchy that is limited by the church, the law, regional and state councils, and other powers in the Kingdom. And while TTL hasn't gotten quite far enough to show it, the Conseilleres will still promote the House of Orleans as being the legitimate ruling house of France. So, I do see the future Conseilleres as being TTL's equivalent to the Carlists, just instead of the Carlists' Dios, Patria, Fueros, Rey (God, Fatherland, Local Rule, and King), the Conseilleres just want Dieu et la Règle Locale (God and Local Rule).
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  15. Alpha-King98760 Aku's most favorite assassin, babe!

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    I don’t remember but is Napoleon Bonaparte up to anything?
     
  16. Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    I can't remember if I actually referenced it, but he's in Corsica, and he will be important as the Emperor of Corsica a founding figure of the rise of Nationalism.
     
  17. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

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    Hmmmm........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................China, final answer.
     
  18. Quintuplicate Well-Known Member

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    Hopswoodism sounds more like communism than anarchism, to be frank.
     
  19. Schnozzberry I am the Man who Stares at Green Beans

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    Hopswoodism as what we've seen so far in the Regulators probably is closer to communism than anarchism (not 100% sure on the finer details of these ideologies, but isn't communism meant to end in anarchism?), but the ideology has yet to reach it's final form. I don't actually know of a very good comparison, but Fully-fledged Hopswoodism will be a mixture of Maoism, Physiocracy, Freiwirtschaft, and Anarcho-Capitalism. A vestigial state will remain, but it's authority is limited to holding excess lands and maintaining currency. It's not quite anarchism, but it's not really an ideology with a proper state either, that's why I see it as "near-Anarchism."
     
  20. Quintuplicate Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but you said "all institutions will be subservient to the state " earlier, is that supposed to be an "interim" stage of Hopswoodism or the end-goal?
     
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