Dealey Plaza shooting spree

The Vulture

Banned
A friend if mine just got JFK Reloaded, and we spent some time trying to recreate the shooting exactly.

Then a friend of mine got bored, and let off a total of 26 shots as soon as the motorcade was in sight. The driver of the Presidential Limo was the first to die when the first bullet hit him in the heart. The limo accelerated out of control and smashed into a brick wall. The subsequent shots felled many other people (including LBJ and Senator Yarborough) and in the panic, several cops and agents were crushed under cars. Ricochets and bullets passing through people resulted in single bullets injuring multiple people.

Total casualties were 17 dead (including JFK, LBJ, Governor Connally, Senator Yarborough, Lady Bird, and Jackie) and 20 wounded.

Needless to say, after watching this simulation, I began wondering about the historical implications. Aside from the fact that the president would probably never make a public appearance again, what might happen?
 
Long-term: Wait for QuoProQuid's incoming TL that deals with that very question.

Short-term: That would mean a President McCormack, who would not seek a full term. Therefore, you have OTL '68: Bobby Kennedy v. Hubert Humphrey for the Dem nomination and therefore the Presidency. Whoever wins, expect some legislative successes.

HHH: Civil Rights, as much of OTL Great Society as possible, New Dealism, escalation in 'Nam.

RFK: Civil Rights, decentralized "community action" anti-poverty efforts, and continuation of the status quo in 'Nam. From there the butterflies are endless.
 
I'm actually working on something similar to this, albeit with fewer shots.

I used JFK Reloaded as well to simulate it. Basically, if you can get just the right shot, you can get a bullet to ricochet off of the limo, and kill both the driver and the front passenger. This causes the driver to slump in his seat and the car enters a spin.

You can find the proposal here.

EDIT: Curse you beaver, you have beaten me once again!
 
The most intresting result I've gotten was hitting the guy hanging off the back, who falls off, causing the secret service car to crash into the side of the tunnel...
 
Lee Harvey Oswald can't go on a shooting spree and live. You could perhaps get a scant few more shots off than the 3 fired, but not 17 plus 20 or however your ballistics worked ot there. Oswald knew he had to get out of there as quickly as possible. Also, people from street level (at least 3) had heard the shots from overhead and noticed they came from the school depository, and at least one had even seen Oswald.

If Oswald keeps at it for the time it'd take to pull off a massacre, someone will shout that there's a man in the 6th floor window and the police will pick it up and start firing, or the police would notice the sounds and see him themselves and open fire and begin to storm the building, and one way or another he will die. That's one thing that "game" never took into consideration; that the police would and should -in the simulation- fire back if Oswald keeps at it.
 
Why is everyone sure that McCormack would not seek an elected term as President.

From what I have heard of him he was a reasonably progressive decent guy,

Plus every 20th Century Vice President who suceeded to the main job ran at the following election.

Yarborough also being killed in one version of this scenario is unfortunate as I am seeing him as VP candidate in 64
 
For those of us not familiar with the sim, how the heck would this even be possible? An old bolt action rifle shooting over a dozen people? Not likely. Did the game give him as AK or something? Even then the weapon is still not likely to have that kind of accuracy. The game's makers sound like they've only seen guns used in the movies. Even the best snipers aren't that accurate.

Plus Norton's points. The plaza is filled with cops and Secret Service who will shoot back. Charles Whitman (Univ of TX sniper) only lasted a few minutes before patrolmen tried to take him out.
 
To be very impolite about it, he's an old political hack who would be unacceptable to the Democratic bosses. Even IOTL, there were rumours that Mayor Daley would crown RFK if LBJ withdrew. Keeping in mind Bobby was in a Lincolnesque (i.e. defacto depression) emotional state until the end of that year...
 
For those of us not familiar with the sim, how the heck would this even be possible? An old bolt action rifle shooting over a dozen people? Not likely. Did the game give him as AK or something? Even then the weapon is still not likely to have that kind of accuracy. The game's makers sound like they've only seen guns used in the movies. Even the best snipers aren't that accurate.

Plus Norton's points. The plaza is filled with cops and Secret Service who will shoot back. Charles Whitman (Univ of TX sniper) only lasted a few minutes before patrolmen tried to take him out.

The unmodified sim has a fade out as soon as the limo is out of view. Unfortunatly, the mod that inserts a crowd disables this, meaning you have to manuely end it by pressing enter.

As for the accuracy of the sniper rifle, belive me, it is pretty hard to hit what you're aiming at, and balistics are correctly modeled. The crowd mod, also unfortunatly, does not give them the ability to move. The main purpose is to see how many would be hit if the driver gets taken out.

Also it does show police running into the building, but without the fade out in the unmodified game, it is somewhat meaningless.
 
For those of us not familiar with the sim, how the heck would this even be possible? An old bolt action rifle shooting over a dozen people? Not likely. Did the game give him as AK or something? Even then the weapon is still not likely to have that kind of accuracy. The game's makers sound like they've only seen guns used in the movies. Even the best snipers aren't that accurate.

The rifle was in perfectly good condition to kill as many as the magazine would allow, but you'd have to keep reloading to kill that many people. Similarly, the sniper rifle was accurate (as accurate as a sniper rifle can be, albeit I believe there was a slight handicap), and Oswald was an ex-marine marksman and a damned good one at that so he could pull off killing whoever he wanted to take out. I don't know why he'd want to take a political killing and spill it over into a slaughter, though.
 
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Like everyone has said, he'd need to keep reloading, it wouldn't work well 4-5 shots? Sure. 17-20? Not really.

I wonder, though, what would have happened if he killed both Kennedy and Johnson. Johnson, remember, was only two cars behind...
 
Think also of other assassinations in motorcades and what's required. Archduke Ferdinand was killed by a team, as was Sadat of Egypt. One person taking out 15-20 is rare unless they are all hapless unprotected and almost stationary people. Oswald killing more than 3 or 4 is very unlikely. Really, in most cases you have one intended target and perhaps one or two security or bystanders killed. Can anyone name any cases where several public figures were killed in one assassination attempt? Offhand I can't think of any.
 
Well, like he did say though, hitting the driver and have it crash into the crowd really helped...
 

burmafrd

Banned
Oswald was NOT a good shot. He barely qualified. And there is no indication that he practiced much if at all before the day. So no way does he cause that much havoc. Not to mention he would have been spotted early and anyone with a gun would have been firing away. SOME of those shots would have come close enough to make him quit.
 
Oswald was NOT a good shot. He barely qualified. And there is no indication that he practiced much if at all before the day. So no way does he cause that much havoc. Not to mention he would have been spotted early and anyone with a gun would have been firing away. SOME of those shots would have come close enough to make him quit.

Of course he wasn't a good shot. Except for him being a qualified Marine Marksman, having scored something like 48/50 and 49/50 on shooting tests (with 98% accuracy), and at lengths twice the distance he was from Kennedy and being an excellent shot and fully capable of killing anything he set his mind to within the limits of physics. But, if you forget all that fluff which obviously has no bearing on this, of course he was a horrible shot.
 
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Your Majesty: a sniper rifle is not an AK where you can just "spray and pray". ;)
I'm not saying it is. I'm saying the myth that Oswald couldn't hit the broadside of a barn which Conspiracy theorists wank off with is utter bunk. Really, how in the world does qualifying for something over the minimum make you the worst at that thing you just qualified in?

Given the speed the motorcade in mobilizing after shot 3, he could kill some others with a mind to do so, albeit he'd probably only be able to get off a scant few shots as the motorcade sped away that'd have a chance of killing anyone he'd wanna kill.


That fact is well established and is reported on at some length in the WCR. He hit a target at 200 yds to 98% accuracy.

In accordance with standard Marine procedures, Oswald received extensive training in marksmanship. During the first week of an intensive 8-week training period he received instruction in sighting, aiming, and manipulation of the trigger. He went through a series of exercises called dry firing where he assumed all positions which would later be used in the qualification course. After familiarization with live ammunition in the .22 rifle and .22 pistol, Oswald, like all Marine recruits, received training on the rifle range at distances up to 500 yards, firing 50 rounds each day for five days.

Following that training, Oswald was tested in December of 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a "sharpshooter" in a scale of marksman--sharpshooter--expert. In May of 1959, on another range, Oswald scored 191, which was 1 point over the minimum for ranking as a "marksman." The Marine Corps records maintained on Oswald further show that he had fired and was familiar with the Browning Automatic rifle, .45 caliber pistol, and 12-gage riot gun.
- Source, WCR, pg 191

The kill shot to JFK's head was from a distance of 88 yds, well within LHO's abilities. The USMC testified to the difficulty of the shots made by Oswald:

Four marksmanship experts testified before the Commission. Maj. Eugene D. Anderson, assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch of the U.S. Marine Corps, testified that the shots which struck the President in the neck and in the head were "not ... particularly difficult." Robert A. Frazier, FBI expert in firearms identification and training, said: "From my own experience in shooting over the years, when you shoot at 175 feet or 260 feet, which is less than 100 yards, with a telescopic sight, you should not have any difficulty in hitting your target. I mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the target and that is all that is necessary." - Source, WCR, pg 190

Representatives from the USMC testified to the WC that Oswald was a "better than average shot.":

Major Anderson concluded:
"I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot."

When Sergeant Zahm was asked whether Oswald's Marine Corps training would have made it easier to operate a rifle with a four-power scope, he replied:
"Based on that training, his basic knowledge in sight manipulation and trigger squeeze and what not, I would say that he would be capable of sighting that rifle in well, firing it, with 10 rounds."

After reviewing Oswald's marksmanship scores, Sergeant Zahm concluded: "I would say in the Marine Corps he is a good shot, slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age throughout the civilian, throughout the United States, that he is an excellent shot." - Source, WCR, pg 192

Oswald scored as a Marksman on the shooting he test he took right before he left the USMC. Why conspiracy theorists cite this lower score and ignore his ability as a sharpshooter escape logic.

More important, Oswald practiced his shooting after he left the USMC. He joined a shooting club in Minsk and went hunting with his brother and others when he returned to the USA. Marina testified that he also took shooting practice.

As far as "rehearsing" the assassination, LHO did just that - look up the tale of LHO's attempt on the life of Gen. Walker.

The Zapruder film shows that LHO had 8.5 seconds to make his three shots. The clock starts running when he takes that first shot as the first round was already chambered. That means that LHO had almost the full 8.5 seconds available to him to chamber and fire the final two shots. Shooters hired by the WC to duplicate LHO's feat were able to fire the 3 shots WITH ACCURACY in as little as 4.4 seconds.

So, you're "40 years old and have been fascinated by the case since I was 10." Yet in that 30 years, you haven't been fascinated enough to read the WCR and to avoid making yourself look stupid by saying that Oswald was a poor shot and wasn't a sharpshooter. Maybe you don't want to know that LHO scored higher than did you.
 
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