de Havilland Comet would not have been successful anyway?

More likely BAE as I can't see de Havilland managing to stay independent up to modern times, the financial and government pressures to merge would just be too great. I think they could maybe have sold 200-250, maybe 300 at the most, before they reached the maximum they could do with the design and had to start afresh. The various British aviation companies did have a wide range of models and ideas that could have covered the market if things had been handled somewhat better.

For commercial aircraft in an ideal, everything goes absolutely perfect, avoiding all the stupid mistakes timeline I say things would generally go

  • BOAC find out about the shortcuts de Havilland are taking and demand that they switch to Rolls-Royce Avon engines, this adds six months extra to the launch date but allows for the slightly enlarged longer range version to be the initial launch version
  • With the great success and no crashes the Comet 2 is quickly launched with improved engines and the fuselage stretched an extra 15 feet, our timeline's Comet 3/4, later improved models begin the first trans-Atlantic jet flights via Gander
  • With a larger eye towards foreign sales the Air Ministry steps in and stops the RAF from demanding too many military-specific modifications for the V-1000 with Vickers decided to go with podded engines, when the RAF pulls out the government grants launch aid and the Ministry sits on BOAC when they start making noises, the VC-7 launches at roughly the same time as the Boeing 707 with comparable performance
  • With their large African and Asian routes a modified version with a T-tail and the engine pods moved to the rear plus slightly re-designed wing is introduced as the VC-10
  • Taking the success with the Comet de Havilland stick to their guns with their DH.121 Trident design when BEA starts getting jittery over a small drop in air passenger numbers, appeals to the Air Ministry see them side with de Havilland and the Trident launches at the same time as the Boeing 727 being a match for any of the American planes of the period
  • The BAC One-Eleven is launched and enjoys the success it did in our timeline, from previous experience BEA dithering isn't allowed to stand in the way of the improved stretched 500 version that builds upon its success in the US to be a competitor to the Boeing 737
  • This success sees the BAC Two-Eleven and Three-Eleven developments go ahead to compete with the Boeing 727-200 variants
  • In 1965 when BEA puts out their specification for an 'Airbus' Hawker Siddeley as the parent company of de Havilland modify their Trident design as the HS.134 by extending the fuselage, moving the engines to the wings and changing them to turbofans, switch to low mounted tail but keep the same nose - essentially what Boeing did with the 727 to create the 757 15 years later, the HS.134 steals a march and is wildly successful
  • A variant of the HS.134 looks like a good fit for the Airbus A300 and developments to steal a march on both it and the later Boeing 767, the UK could go it alone or if they join the European Airbus consortium it puts them in a much stronger position likely to take the lead on the project
  • The major hole in their inventory is going to be the 747 and I'm not sure there'd be a driver for a British one before Boeing makes the move, BAC will be too busy with Concorde but I could see Hawker Siddeley potentially having a go at developing a reply to the 747 perhaps as a joint-venture with a contribution from BAC presaging the merger to become British Aerospace later on
  • An alternative could be a European consortium to build a 747 competitor and develop future Airbus variants

But like I said this is the 'the Gods smiles upon them' scenario. :)

I like this. My only argument would be with the existence of both a two-eleven and three-eleven. They were really successors to each other, and it was the three-eleven much more than the HS.134 that was equivalent to the A300. I'd think the more likely scenario, and the one less likely to end up in financial disaster and duplicated effort is that you get the three-eleven and the 134, with the two-eleven seen as addressing the same market as the 134 and both projects being two much for BAC to take on simultaneously in any case.

The interesting question to me is how the three-eleven program and Airbus end up meshing. They are theoretically very similar aircraft, and given previous success TTL I don't see rolling the program into a European program as terribly likely (especially given how the programs interacted OTL), but at the same time the tail engined twin widebody has potentially serious operating problems. If BAC ends up moving the engines to the wings it becomes an almost exact duplication of the A300, something that will be very obvious as the program goes on. If we assume the French don't drop the Airbus without British participation (and they didn't OTL when the British walked out) I wonder if the three-eleven might be cancelled VERY with an agreement to establish Concorde like dual production lines and use engines meant for the three-eleven on the Airbus.

If both the three-eleven and A300 end up in service it's going to be ugly. I could speculate on the outcome of the programs, but ultimately I suspect the core story is going to be destructive competition and neither aircraft being profitable. In the long run things definitely look better for Airbus than the Brits given the issues a very large tail engined platform is likely to have and the multiple partners associated with Airbus. That said, with the HS.134 having short circuited the A320 program the big short term loser is probably Lockheed finding the Tristar shut out of Europe (although that could also be a good thing, between the ability to gives Rolls Royce the boot and focus on longer range versions earlier) while the European commercial industry as a whole is probably going to be a bloodbath, with a lot of good products without a market. OTOH that kind of incentive to discount orders is what got Airbus into North America in the first place... If you were up for absolutely wankish levels of optimism I could almost see the early approval of both the 134 and three-eleven either scaring the French off from launching the A300 altogether or more likely turning it into an ultimately purely French project that ends up resembling the Mercure and ends up with the French industry track record looking a lot more like OTL's British than their own.

In terms of the overall premise though, my take is that no, the Comet wouldn't have been in any way a failure without the crashes. Certainly it would have been "fleeting" as OP put it, but frankly that was par for the course in that era. The aircraft would have been more common than OTL though, and would have only done good for British aerospace. In essence I think a Comet without OTL's disasters makes completion of the V-1000 almost a certainty. How successful that program is will have much more bearing on the long term future of the British industry than the Comet at that point. That said, yes, all the structural issues, terrible decision making and bad habits of the British industry still exist and I suspect most likely you've just delayed the ultimate decline of the industry a few years. That said, I tend to think that the V-1000 design was pretty well solidified when it was cancelled OTL, and I don't think there were any glaring issues. Yes, it had buried engines, and was generally going to be problematic to stretch, but so was the 707. I suspect from what little I have seen that it would have actually been truly on par with the 707 in just about every way, with the real question being one of marketing, pricing and production speed (likely to combine in terrible ways and seriously limit the number actually built).
 
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WI British Airways retained its Comet Mark 1s and stationed them at Gander to work as air-tankers?
Every time a trans-Atlantic flight was scheduled to pass Gander, they would send up an old Comet tanker to orbit at 30,000 and re-fuel the airliner passing overhead. Not having to descent, land, shut-down, un-load all the passengers, re-fuel, re-load passengers, take-off and climb back to altitude would shave three-ish hours off every trans-Atlantic flight.
 
I like this. My only argument would be with the existence of both a Two-Eleven and Three-Eleven. They were really successors to each other, and it was the Three-Eleven much more than the HS.134 that was equivalent to the A300. I'd think the more likely scenario, and the one less likely to end up in financial disaster and duplicated effort is that you get the Three-Eleven and the HS.134, with the Two-Eleven seen as addressing the same market as the Two-Eleven and both projects being two much for BAC to take on simultaneously in any case.
'The Two-Eleven seen as addressing the same market as the Two-Eleven...'? I'm assuming that one of these was meant to be Three-Eleven, although I'm not sure which now. Interesting on what you say about the HS.134 and the A300, I only know a little about the aviation industry history so attempting to keep track of the different makes and models can be a bit tricky at times. Just trying the map the Boeing and various British manufacturer's models gave me

N/A - de Havilland Comet
Boeing 707 - Vickers VC-7
Boeing 720 - N/A
Boeing 727 - Hawker Siddeley HS.121
Boeing 727-200 - BAC Two-Eleven / Three-Eleven
Boeing 737 - BAC One-Eleven
Boeing 747 - N/A
Boeing 757 - Hawker Siddeley HS.134

I haven't even attempted the other US manufacturers or Airbus coming in alongside the 767 or others yet.


The interesting question to me is how the Three-Eleven program and Airbus end up meshing. They are theoretically very similar aircraft, and given previous success TTL I don't see rolling the program into a European program as terribly likely (especially given how the programs interacted OTL), but at the same time the tail engined twin widebody has potentially serious operating problems.
You have to remember though that politics can play just as heavy a role in decisions as these as the business/financial ones, and at this period in time joint ventures with Europe were very much in vogue, the SEPECAT Jaguar and Aerospatiale-BAC Concorde being just two examples. It was the governments way of showing themselves to be 'good Europeans'. Just because it might make business sense to keep it a wholly domestic market the government of the day could bow to pressure and open it up to be a consortium project with a British firm as the lead company.
 
'The Two-Eleven seen as addressing the same market as the Two-Eleven...'?

Fixed that. I actually meant that the two-eleven and the hs.134 are very similar. The two-eleven amounting to a further stretch and re-engining of the one-eleven, possibly with a fairly modest increase in diameter. Wikipedia's description of it being a similar to an MD-80 created out of the one-eleven is pretty fair. The three-eleven was a full widebody three hundred(ish) seater intended for almost exactly the same role as the A300.

Frustratingly for this discussion the hs.134 was the British aircraft referred to in it's specifications as an Airbus, and is the program that has a more direct lineage to the A300 as it was built. The three-eleven was seen at the time more as a competing all British option to involvement in the consortium.

As for the politics of the thing, my speculation is that with the more successful industry to date a French led Airbus isn't going to be palatable to a government that is in the late 60s starting to be less than thrilled with the outcome of the Concorde project. Certainly there is going to be a lot of talk of the Airbus program as OTL, but I'm imagining the government essentially reversing the OTL decision, cancelling involvement in the consortium and approving the three-eleven.

The question to me is whether a purely Franco-German Airbus goes ahead with a direct British competitor also in development. The destructive competition issue to me is that once both program are underway I rather suspect that neither country is going to be willing (appear?) to abandon it's own project. Certainly it's true that there pan-European projects were in vogue at the time, but the British were always fairly leery of them, and with this more successful industry I really doubt they would sign onto the largely French designed A300 while at the same time the French aren't going to want to accept the much reduced role they would have were the three-eleven to become the basis for a European project.

That said, an interesting possibility came to mind while I was writing this. Were the A300 project to be abandoned in the face of British competition and withdrawal the Germans could conceivably be brought into the Mercure program. Even minimal German involvement could fund development of the longer range 200 version, or better yet replace the OTL aircraft with something longer legged to begin with. The basic design seems to have been quite good, and had production continued or more funding been available a Mercure with CFM-56s is almost certainly going to be possible years before Boeing looks at launching the 737 Classics. This could also open the door to an A330/340 like program, focused on long range and the lower end of the VLA market happening around the time the A320 did OTL, a program that seems very well suited to bringing the British into this timeline's version of Airbus (especially considering that my own view is that while the three-eleven would have been a perfectly good European aircraft upgrading it for ETOPS and much more than marginal transatlantic capability would have been a lot of trouble).
 
Does the high change much ?
42,000 ft Cruise altitude (C1) v 23,300 ft Service ceiling (307)

Not sure if it makes a difference ? any experts here ?

It makes a huge difference in fatigue issues because the pressure differential between cabin pressure and external pressure is what stresses the skin. A plane cruising at 23000 feet with an 8000 foot cabin altitude will undergo less stress than one cruising at 35000 feet maintaining the same cabin altitude.

However, the real story is in the number of pressurization cycles an aircraft undergoes. In the famous Aloha Airlines incident with a Boeing 737 in the late 1980s, the aircraft involved had a huge number of pressurization cycles in its life, which led to the fatigue cracking in the fuselage skin. I forget the exact numbers, but most modern Boeing airframes are limited to, I believe, around 75,000 cycles or 150,000 hours. DC-9s, by contrast, I think are good for over 100,000 cycles. Tough machines, those DC-9s.

To go back on topic, I could see the Comet making some sales in the US in the 50s had the fatigue issue not cropped up. United bought the Caravelle and Capital (later merged into United) bought the Viscount, so buying foreign-made aircraft wasn't an issue. I could see a Comet without the design flaw seeing entry into US service circa 1956-7, much in the same way that the DC-7 was something of a stopgap between the DC-6 and the first US jets. Unlike the DC-7s, which were rather quickly ditched once the jets arrived, the Comets might have stayed around through the 1960s until newer shorter range jets came onto the scene. Each of the four major trunk/flag carriers of the day, United, American, Pan Am and TWA might have been forced by competitive pressures to pick up a few to bridge the gap for their prestige routes until the 707 and DC-8 were ready for service. Some of the other larger carriers with long-haul routes may have had to do the same; Continental, Delta and Eastern come to mind there.
 
I don't know how big it would have been in the US, but some Comets would be almost inevitable. Bear in mind that Pan Am had actually ordered the Comet III and only cancelled after the crashes. I'd love to see those CP ones get into service as well, but I don't think that's really on the table given that their crash was one of the early takeoff stalls and led directly to cancellation well prior to the fatigue issues.
 
Uhm... you left a few out. Douglas DC-8, DC-9 & DC-10. The Tri-Star. Plus Convair's speed demons, the 880 & 990.
Err, yes, hence the part where I wrote 'I haven't even attempted the other US manufacturers or Airbus coming in alongside the 767 or others yet' in the same post right after that list.

Basically because I'm still trying to figure which plane fits in where against each other, and considering the number of variants each one often has, I've just been using Excel to draw up a list of vaguely comparable aircraft and where they stand against each other. Started with Boeing as the most successful and seeing what generally mapped over. Here's the early list that I had with the other manufacturers added for good measure.

Airliners.JPG

Now since I've just been using Wikipedia and a couple of other sites from the internet I wouldn't be surprised if I've gotten a couple horribly wrong. Any of those more knowledgeable able to suggest a better fit for any of them against each other? Thanks.

Airliners.JPG
 
With apologies for a bit of a necro on this, the only BIG mistake I see on that list is that the BAC three-eleven is not at all equivalent to the 727. The two-eleven more or less fits, but the three eleven was a full twin aisle widebody with just short of 300 seats. It was almost exactly equivalent to the original A300 in intent, mission and capabilities. In appearance think an A300 with the nose and tail scaled directly up from the one-eleven.
 
An interesting tidbit from this discussion: imagine what would have happened if the British government continued it support for the Airbus consortium, scaled down the A300 design to the A300B design, and helped Rolls-Royce more rapidly develop the -524 version of the RB.211 engine to power the A300B? In that case, would British Airways instead of buying the L1011 end up with a fleet of A300B2 and B4 planes for flights between London and various European destinations by the middle 1970's?
 
What a great thread. I'm glad that, in 2015, folks are still thinking about this… me included.

First, a little fun… attached is my "artist's rendition" of what a modern-day Comet Next Generation aircraft might have looked like, if the airframe had been repurposed for this century (like the 737-100 evolved). See attached photo.

Second, my one-and-only trip abroad was to the De Havilland Museum, to see the only Comet 1 (fuselage only) still in existence. This is the only airframe that has been unmodified, the former Air France F-BGNX. Attached are video stills showing the fuselage construction. First, I was amazed to see that the flush riveting was not countersunk, but rather dimpled. To have a pressurized jetliner with dimpled flush-riveting is, to me, ridiculous. Second, while inside the Comet 1, I was amazed that the frames were of such thin metal that one could easily bend and deform them by hand. This speaks volumes to the thin gauge that De Havilland used. Third, you can see my whole video on YouTube showing my walk-through of the airframe (thanks greatly to my good friend, Geoff Follett, who gave me a superb tour of the fuselage). The URL is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvNGL8sqxyw .

Again, see attached photos.

comet_next_generation.jpg

comet_next_generation.jpg
 
I've worked on Comets and built and maintained Nimrods and much as it pains me to say.... I think that though a beautiful aircraft ultimatly they would have been surpassed.
Even the later models were just a collection of adaptions and modifications.
The engines despite being buried in the wings were suprisingly easy to remove and refit; the times comparing favourably with podded engines of the period.
The rest of the aircraft in so far as its structure went was a pig to inspect and repair though.
What the Comet should have been IMO was the lead aircraft for a whole new family
Sadly though this never happened .
After the disaters the British aircraft industry and government lost its nerve.
Now a time line where that never happened would be interesting

My Great-Uncle, on my mother's side, worked on the Comet for de Havilland, we still have one of the wind-test models.

Apparently one of the things that killed the Comet, and the follow on's, was the merger with Hawker Siddeley. Different priorities, more government interference and cost saving! (Lots of Rationalisation)
Ironically he then went to work on the even more innovative Harrier.
 
edgeworthy, the reason why the British aerospace industry failed was because they designed airliners too tied to BEA and BOAC requirements. The only British plane that somehow managed to succeed in the 1960's was the BAC 1-11, mostly because the plane was far better-suited for the needs of European airlines back then.

When Airbus started work on the the Joint European Transport (JET) in the late 1970's, their goal was simple: create a successor to the Boeing 727 that had the same passenger/cargo capacity and range of the 727-200 but with way lower fuel-burn and noise levels. The result: the A320, a plane that became the "bread and butter" of Airbus (and still is in late 2015).
 
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