de Havilland Comet would not have been successful anyway?

Sadly though this never happened .
After the disaters the British aircraft industry and government lost its nerve.
Now a time line where that never happened would be interesting

The comet disasters should never have happened - it's not like there was no experience in designing pressure vessels to draw on and prevent square cut outs making the production line.

There is a fairly solid argument I think that while "what might have been" is a fun thought exercise for the post-war British aircraft industry, the reality is that what happened to it was almost inevitable due to the almost self sabotaging nature of that industry and surrounding climate - lack of funds, lack of scale, disastrous political interference and policy making, inefficient work practices, and deeply rooted conservatism. In hindsight while there were odd flashes of brilliance, one could argue they were in spite of the British way of doing things rather than because of them, with lots of potential wasted.
 
The comet disasters should never have happened - it's not like there was no experience in designing pressure vessels to draw on and prevent square cut outs making the production line.
The annoying thing about it all was that if they'd stuck to the original plans the flaws would have been avoided so I've been led to believe, instead they changed things to be able to use their own engines and compromised the design. The idiots.
 
While I agree with the original poster, I believe that is overly-critical. Comet was the best jet airliner the Brits could design during the 1940s. Under-slung engine pods were not seriously considered until the 1950s. Under-slung engine pods did not have a significant advantage until turbo-fans were introduced during the 1960s.

I have to disagree. After all, if you look the design of the Boeing B-47 bomber unveiled in 1947:

640px-XB47_on_runway.jpg


Note the engines are mounted on pods, a longer one for the two inboard engines and a shorter one for the outboard engine. As such, it was clear there were potential advantages for podded jet engine installations. Indeed, when Boeing started design work on the 707 around 1950, they designed the plane around a podded engine installation (they even studied the idea of single pod mounting two engines like what was done on of the B-52 bomber, but dropped the idea due to concerns about compressor stage damage in one engine that could take out the other engine).
 
Like you I am not an expert but one advantage to podded engines is if the engine malfunctions the parts are contained, in theory, in the POD. If the engine is in the wing you have a much greater chance of loosing the wing.
Except that you're assuming that the pod carries more armour than the wing - if it's the same amount then the blades will just fly a few feet and hit whatever they would have anyway. If anything it's easier to put armour in the wing, because with a podded installation the armour is at the end of a long canteliver rather than inside the wing structure.

Fires and shedding blades might not damage the wing within a Pod, but inside the wing, it will happen.
Ummm... yes, they will. Fires are the only possible advantage, and there you're basically hoping that the fire burns through the pylon the pod is hanging on before it spreads to the wing - in return for making it harder to fit fire extinguishers.

I have to disagree. After all, if you look the design of the Boeing B-47 bomber unveiled in 1947:

Note the engines are mounted on pods, a longer one for the two inboard engines and a shorter one for the outboard engine. As such, it was clear there were potential advantages for podded jet engine installations. Indeed, when Boeing started design work on the 707 around 1950, they designed the plane around a podded engine installation (they even studied the idea of single pod mounting two engines like what was done on of the B-52 bomber, but dropped the idea due to concerns about compressor stage damage in one engine that could take out the other engine).
The B-29 uses what is conceptually the same installation - the engines are podded, but in front rather than below the wing due to the different thrust method. Boeing were an early convert to the idea - but this doesn't mean that they were necessarily right at the time, merely that subsequent developments have caused the general adoption of the idea.
 
Except that you're assuming that the pod carries more armour than the wing - if it's the same amount then the blades will just fly a few feet and hit whatever they would have anyway. If anything it's easier to put armour in the wing, because with a podded installation the armour is at the end of a long canteliver rather than inside the wing structure.


Ummm... yes, they will. Fires are the only possible advantage, and there you're basically hoping that the fire burns through the pylon the pod is hanging on before it spreads to the wing - in return for making it harder to fit fire extinguishers.


The B-29 uses what is conceptually the same installation - the engines are podded, but in front rather than below the wing due to the different thrust method. Boeing were an early convert to the idea - but this doesn't mean that they were necessarily right at the time, merely that subsequent developments have caused the general adoption of the idea.

The pylon mounted engines are generally mounted so that the compressor fan is in front of the wing so if a turbine does fly apart the blades are forward of the wing spar.

Podded engines also mean a simpler wing structure. With the engine mounted in the wing the main wing spars have to work around the engine. this causes additional structure (weight). With the pods the main wing spars can be continious. This is simpler to design and build as well as generally being lighter.
 
The comet disasters should never have happened - it's not like there was no experience in designing pressure vessels to draw on and prevent square cut outs making the production line.
De Havilland were perfectly aware of both pressure vessels and the stress concentrations at a square corner. This is why the Comet 1 windows were not square. The corners were carefully curved to avoid such stress concentrations. What nobody knew about was the metal fatigue in thin aluminium pressure vessels (ie an aircraft pressure cabin) from repeated pressure reversals (ie climbing and descending) and the incredibly fast tear propagation in such materials when it happens. Knowledge at the time suggested that the curved corners would prevent cracks and, should they begin, routine inspection should identify them before they cause problems and the cracks stopped and reinforced.

This is the penalty for being the first. Boeing and Douglas immediately reviewed their plans in the light of the new knowledge and later Comets had no problems at all. At the time of design there was no reason known to doubt the chosen design.

On a different tack; the expected routes for the Comet included fairly short runways so De Havilland went for a low wing loading, thus a large wing so the thickness, in the broad chord Comet wing, allowed for the buried engines with no problem and the same wing could take Avons, RB106 and later on Spey Turbofans. Buried engines will return with blended wings and windows will disappear and be replaced by view screens. The Boeing 707 benefitted from the above knowledge, the US government funded Boeing 367-80/KC135 predecessor and the building of longer runways as time went on. Boeing was fortunate in this as the KC135 was expected to operate from long US military runways that had to be made for the B36 so Boeing had been able to use higher wing loadings, thus smaller wings, thus narrower chords requiring thinner wing sections so a podded engine was mandated by the whole concept as these wings could not take a buried turbojet let alone a turbofan as carried in the Nimrod wings.
 
It is curious that De Havilland's most successful airliner was never called a De Havilland. One of the most long-lived executive jets used to be but is no longer called a De Havilland. The Comet was as successful as it was going to be. It had wing-root engines at a time when Valiant, Victor and Vulcan had wing-root engines, and the Nimrod gave it longevity. An American turbo-prop airliner was stricken with catastrophic aircraft failure and went on to lead a phenominally long life as the P3 Orion. The Caravelle was not as big a success as I believe it should have been, but it takes market analysts, bean counters and clever promoters to figure out why. The Mercure was dead in the water because they didn't know you could always put an extra fuel tank in the rear fuselage for longer range. It had the greatest engine in the world, but it had it first. OOPS. Engines don't have to be on pylons. The B737 copied the Me262. The B727 wasn't so inclined. Pylons can also be, and have been, problematical when you don't do it right.

avro.jpg
 
The pylon mounted engines are generally mounted so that the compressor fan is in front of the wing so if a turbine does fly apart the blades are forward of the wing spar.
Problem is that at least at the time as I understand it turbine blades were the most likely to fail. With Turbofans a compressor blade failing is the absolute worst case because they're huge in comparison with the turbine blades and so have much more energy. That isn't true of early turbojets - and particularly not of the centrifugal compressor jets we're talking about for the Comet and it's analogues. You're applying modern conditions to a much earlier design and trying to argue they make it wrong - but they don't apply at all.

Podded engines also mean a simpler wing structure. With the engine mounted in the wing the main wing spars have to work around the engine. this causes additional structure (weight). With the pods the main wing spars can be continious. This is simpler to design and build as well as generally being lighter.
Umm... no. There are occasions when the wing spar goes around the engine with no benefits (Blackburn Buccaneer, I'm looking at you), but they're rare. Normally by going to a thicker wing with engines in it you actually save weight - for the same mass of material an I-beam will always be much, much stronger than a simple rod. By punching a hole through the web of the I-beam for the air intakes (putting the engine between the spars makes getting it in and out easier - again not really the case on a Bucc) you get to take full advantage of the extra depth of wing available. It's structural engineering 101, and something everybody was well aware of. Boeing were going all out for thin wings mostly because that was the company design style post B-17 but also because it makes the aerodynamics a lot simpler (you can stick with a single sweep angle and fairly constant chord). If you're willing to go for a more complex and advanced wing planform, you can get all the structural benefits of a thicker wing with very few of the aerodynamic costs.

De Havilland were perfectly aware of both pressure vessels and the stress concentrations at a square corner. This is why the Comet 1 windows were not square. The corners were carefully curved to avoid such stress concentrations. What nobody knew about was the metal fatigue in thin aluminium pressure vessels (ie an aircraft pressure cabin) from repeated pressure reversals (ie climbing and descending) and the incredibly fast tear propagation in such materials when it happens. Knowledge at the time suggested that the curved corners would prevent cracks and, should they begin, routine inspection should identify them before they cause problems and the cracks stopped and reinforced.
Depends how curved - DH went for a fairly square corner, they just rounded off the point.
p5cyp19a.jpg

Worse, they used countersunk screw holes near it which added further stress.

This is the penalty for being the first. Boeing and Douglas immediately reviewed their plans in the light of the new knowledge and later Comets had no problems at all. At the time of design there was no reason known to doubt the chosen design.
Hmmm.... not so sure about that - DH had a bit of a track record of running with very thin safety margins on a design to get stellar performance. The knowledge about fatigue, stresses, etc. was all there - they just failed to apply it effectively. After they were made an example of, everybody else made sure not to make that particular mistake again.

On a different tack; the expected routes for the Comet included fairly short runways so De Havilland went for a low wing loading, thus a large wing so the thickness, in the broad chord Comet wing, allowed for the buried engines with no problem
Ummm... sorta-kinda. Buried engines also allow for high-lift devices along the entire trailing edge of the wing (one reason the VC-10 had tail-mounted engines - it was intended for many of the same routes with short, hot and high runways on them). Problem is, if you look at the safety record of the Comet in particular when operating from those runways it's appalling - G-ALYZ and CF-CUN were both lost to that before they added wing fences and a leading edge droop (and presumably warned pilots of the problem too). I think a large part of the problem is that it was simply underpowered as a consequence of using early engines - later versions had double the power for only a 50% weight increase.
 
I have to disagree. After all, if you look the design of the Boeing B-47 bomber unveiled in 1947:

640px-XB47_on_runway.jpg


Note the engines are mounted on pods, a longer one for the two inboard engines and a shorter one for the outboard engine. As such, it was clear there were potential advantages for podded jet engine installations. Indeed, when Boeing started design work on the 707 around 1950, they designed the plane around a podded engine installation (they even studied the idea of single pod mounting two engines like what was done on of the B-52 bomber, but dropped the idea due to concerns about compressor stage damage in one engine that could take out the other engine).

The B-47 was originally designed with engines buried in the fuselage, the move to pods came as the design evolved. Besides the safety benefits and other reasons mentioned by various posters above, there are also aerodynamic benefits from a well designed pod installation. It wasn't intentional, but it was discovered that the podded engines on the B-47 reduced aeroelastic twisting and flutter on the wing at certain speeds. Podded engines acting as dampers in this way was also employed on the -80 and 747. There are other drag benefits as well.
 
Ummm... sorta-kinda. Buried engines also allow for high-lift devices along the entire trailing edge of the wing (one reason the VC-10 had tail-mounted engines - it was intended for many of the same routes with short, hot and high runways on them). Problem is, if you look at the safety record of the Comet in particular when operating from those runways it's appalling - G-ALYZ and CF-CUN were both lost to that before they added wing fences and a leading edge droop (and presumably warned pilots of the problem too). I think a large part of the problem is that it was simply underpowered as a consequence of using early engines - later versions had double the power for only a 50% weight increase.

At the risk of over simplifying, one of the issues in the Comet take-off accidents was raising the nose too high too early, meaning the aircraft stopped accelerating quickly enough (or at all) due to the AoA creating more drag.
 
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Hmmm.... not so sure about that - DH had a bit of a track record of running with very thin safety margins on a design to get stellar performance. The knowledge about fatigue, stresses, etc. was all there - they just failed to apply it effectively. After they were made an example of, everybody else made sure not to make that particular mistake again.
Lots of hindsight allowed people to point to things afterwards and join dots that were barely visible on the paper at the time of design. What De Havilland were doing for the first ever time was high altitude civilian flights with pressurisation and depressurisation cycles several times a day for days on end. This doesn't happen to military flights. They fly far less often and with a simple out and return profile. There was no comparison for De Havilland to turn to. Civilian flight does not use such high stress maneuvers as military ones so a thinner skin gauge seemed a perfectly sound decision but it pants in and out more on each cycle exacerbating the problem and pre stressing the tear routes in the skin. A 'Comet 1 V bomber' (had it existed) would have been in service for years before the actual Comet 1 problem brought them down. Even then the thicker skin could well have displayed the cracking before the failure. De Havilland were not being reckless. They were literally flying into the unknown.

BTW in the photograph it is interesting that the crack began at the curved section/straight section interface in the window frame. i.e. where the straight section had been bending more than the stiffer curved section. I notice that current windows are also square in general shape but with more sophisticated curved corners. I remember the pure oval with a 2 dimensional curve plane of the Vickers Viscount. They were not going to take a chance there!
 
Yes looking at the numbers (nearly twice) I assumed it would make a huge change but not totally sure how does altitude pressure change ?
 
De Havilland were perfectly aware of both pressure vessels and the stress concentrations at a square corner. This is why the Comet 1 windows were not square. The corners were carefully curved to avoid such stress concentrations. What nobody knew about was the metal fatigue in thin aluminium pressure vessels (ie an aircraft pressure cabin) from repeated pressure reversals (ie climbing and descending) and the incredibly fast tear propagation in such materials when it happens. Knowledge at the time suggested that the curved corners would prevent cracks and, should they begin, routine inspection should identify them before they cause problems and the cracks stopped and reinforced.

This is the penalty for being the first. Boeing and Douglas immediately reviewed their plans in the light of the new knowledge and later Comets had no problems at all. At the time of design there was no reason known to doubt the chosen design.

On a different tack; the expected routes for the Comet included fairly short runways so De Havilland went for a low wing loading, thus a large wing so the thickness, in the broad chord Comet wing, allowed for the buried engines with no problem and the same wing could take Avons, RB106 and later on Spey Turbofans. Buried engines will return with blended wings and windows will disappear and be replaced by view screens. The Boeing 707 benefitted from the above knowledge, the US government funded Boeing 367-80/KC135 predecessor and the building of longer runways as time went on. Boeing was fortunate in this as the KC135 was expected to operate from long US military runways that had to be made for the B36 so Boeing had been able to use higher wing loadings, thus smaller wings, thus narrower chords requiring thinner wing sections so a podded engine was mandated by the whole concept as these wings could not take a buried turbojet let alone a turbofan as carried in the Nimrod wings.

The Convair B-36 Peacemaker was made by Ta Da Convair not Boeing. It is the worst possible example of a thin wing you could come up with. The engines were so prone to problems that in flight the flight engineers could through the wing access each engine. The Boeing 307 (1938 - the first pressurized airliner to enter commercial service)
Lockheed Constellation (1943 - the first pressurized airliner in wide service)
Avro Tudor (1946 - first British pressurized airliner) so the Comet was the 4th Pressurized Airliner. If I remember the windows were not built correctly on the Comet. It wasn't just the shape the were supposed to be glued and riveted, or screwed, which ever one was not done. The Comet was the Concorde of its time it cut travel time in half. One problem was unlike the Concorde other builders competed with it and with the accidents it couldn't come back.
 
A quick search suggests that at 23,000 feet air pressure is only 40% that or sea level and drops to just 17% at 42,000 feet. The other factors that might affect things are going to be the much lower temperature the higher you go and with jet engines the potentially faster climb and descent to and from altitude.


... so the Comet was the 4th Pressurized Airliner. If I remember the windows were not built correctly on the Comet. It wasn't just the shape the were supposed to be glued and riveted, or screwed, which ever one was not done.
IIRC the shape was changed, the gauge of the metal skin was reduced, and were meant to use glue and drilled rivet construction but instead was built with punched rivets which made it more susceptible to cracks and tears forming. If they'd just swallowed their pride and waited for six months or so until a more powerful engine was available and not therefore have to diverge from the original plans it could have all been avoided.
 
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Boeing XB-47 first flight December 17, 1947
De Havilland Comet, first flight July 27, 1949.

IMO this alone dooms the Comet to being a minor commercial success. Britian had two possible commercial aircraft that could of been major players IMO. The Avro and Handley Page derived designs of their Vulcan and Victor bombers.
 
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