DCS Revised: A Better Color Scheme

[Linbot]

View attachment 805688
North China. Can someone who knows more about China, like @Linbot, check this over?

I actually like this. Some comments:

- The colour for Manchukuo should probably be the same as the colour for Changchun, since that was the capital of Manchukuo.
- It is very odd to me that Han Dynasty and Beijing/Yuan Shao would share the same colour, since Hebei historically has never been a capital of Han. My personal suggestion would be for Hanzhong and Han Dynasty to share a colour, since the "Han" in their names has a common origin.
- You should include Zhao as an alternate use for Handan.
- You should include Dai and the Tuoba Wei as an alternate use for Northern Shanxi.
- You should include Wei as an alternate use for Southern Shanxi.
- The Taiyuan colour should be able to be used for any Jin (since they were all based in this area), including the Jin Dynasty and the Later Tang, but not Jurchen Jin
- I suggest that Kaifeng, Zhengzhou, and Song Dynasty share one colour. Zhengzhou is the modern capital of Henan, but historically Kaifeng was the most important city in Henan between the 11th century and the 20th century. But they are close to each other and I cannot remember any period where Zhengzhou and Kaifeng were the centres of rival polities, so they can share the same colour. Instead of Pingdingshan being the tertiary Henan colour, I would suggest either Nanyang or Caizhou/Zhumadian.
- I also suggest that you have an Anyang/Pingyuan/Shang Dynasty colour.
- Why do Shandong and Jinan not share a colour? Jinan has always been the capital of Shandong. My personal suggestion for colours in Shandong is:
1. Jinan/Qi/Primary Shandong
2. Jining/Lu/Southern Shandong
3. Qingdao/Langya/Jiaoxi
4. Weihai/Jiaodong/Shandong Peninsula/secondary British China/Northern Chinese thalassocracy
Having a Mount Tai colour is unnecessary in my opinion.
- Zhou Dynasty's colour should obviously be the same as the Xi'an/Shaanxi colour. By "Northwestern Clique", I assume you mean Yang Hucheng's armed forces? This colour should really have Feng Yuxiang and the Guominjun as an alternate use, since Yang Hucheng was a subordinate of Feng Yuxiang. It doesn't make that much sense to have Feng Yuxiang be an alternate use for Ningxia.
- I think you should have Qin Dynasty as an alternate use for the Eastern Gansu colour.
- My suggestion is to just get rid of the Gansu colour. Tuyuhun should be an alternate use for the Tangut colour.
- I also suggest that you have a Northern Shaanxi/Yulin colour. Given that there isn't really any other good place to put the Tang Dynasty, I suppose you could have Tang Dynasty as an alternate use for this colour as well.
- I'm not sure why "Hetao" is an alternate use for the Lanzhou colour. What does that mean exactly? Lanzhou is the modern capital of Gansu (though during the Ming Dynasty the capital of Gansu was in Hexi).
- The Yugurs should actually be an alternate use for the Hexi colour, not the Dunhuang colour. The only Yugur state to have existed in history was the Ganzhou Uyghur Kingdom, which was in Hexi, and not around Dunhuang. Switch the colours around if you really want the Yugurs to be yellow.
- There really needs to be a colour for a Huaihai/Xuzhou/Northern Jiangsu state.
- The colours you have in the Jiangnan section are a bit weird and I'd suggest them to be redone as the following:
1. Anhui/Ming Dynasty/Chu
2. Northern Jiangsu/Huai River-based state/Xuzhou/Southern Qi
3. Central Jiangsu/Yangzhou/Sui Dynasty
4. Primary Jiangsu/Nanjing/Eastern Wu
5. Secondary Jiangsu/Zhenjiang/Liu Song
6. Shanghai/Suzhou/Jiangnan/Wu (Spring and Autumn) (I'm not aware of any time Suzhou and Shanghai were capitals of rival states, and they're both basically just alt capitals for the same region)
7. Zhejiang/Hangzhou/Wu (Ten Kingdoms)
8. Kuaiji/Shaoxing/Yue (Spring and Autumn)
9. Southern Zhejiang/Ouyue
10. Zhoushan Islands/East Chinese thalassocracy
In general, I think that the Jiangnan category should actually be in the South China section. Also, rename it to "Eastern China" or "Lower Yangtze Region". And move the Fujian colours to this section.

View attachment 806361
And here's South China done, now with more ethnic minorities in the southwest and more islands in the South China Sea.

- I would suggest that Southern Liang (rather than Liu Song) be the dynastic alternate for Hubei. Since the founder of Southern Liang had his army stationed in Xiangyang before he took the capital.
- If the Nanchang colour is supposed to be for a Poyang Lake-based state, it should say Jiujiang, not Nanchang. Nanchang is the capital of Jiangxi (always has been) and it is on the Gan River.
- My suggestion is for you have one colour that is Shenzhen/Huizhou/Dong River/Chen Jiongming, another colour that is Eastern Guangdong/Chaoshan, another colour that is Hakka/Taipings/Southern Jiangxi, and another colour that is Inland Fujian/Nanping
- The Guangxi colour should refer to Liuzhou specifically and not Guangxi in general, since the fact that you include the Zhuangs as an alternate use implies that you really mean the western part of the province here, and Nanning and Guilin are the actual historical capitals of Guangxi.
- I'd suggest having "Zhaoqing/Xi River" rather than "Taishan/Sze Yup/Western Guangdong", since Zhaoqing is historically an important city. There was a time when Guangzhou and Zhaoqing hosted rival factions of Southern Ming.
- Nanzhao should really be an alternate use for the Primary Yi colour, since it was the ethnically Yi state.
- Qin Dynasty being an alternate use for Guizhou makes utterly no sense. The Qin Dynasty didn't even control Guizhou. Same for Xiamen/Liang Dynasty. Hunan/Tang Dynasty is also inexplicable, and Eastern Wu/Wuzhou, and Leizhou/Shi Xie. People are going to be confused when they can't find these dynasties in the North China part of the key.
- Actually, delete the Hunan colour. It's not doing anything that isn't already being done by the Changsha colour. Changsha is on the Xiang River. Unless you want to use the Hunan colour for, say, Hengyang.
- Add Xiangxi as an alternate use for the Huaihua colour.
- "Formosan Mainland China" should really be moved from Fujian to Xiamen in my opinion.
- I'm sure this is standard for you, but is there really a good reason for having this many colours for random uninhabited islands in the South China Sea? As opposed to having more colours in places where there are actually likely to be multiple states, I mean.
- I suggest that you use "Middle Yangtze Region" instead of "South Central China".
- I suggest that you use "Liangguang" or "South China sensu stricto" instead of "Lingnan".
- Why can't the last section just be called "South China Sea Islands"? Are Taiwan and Hainan not islands in or around the SCS?
- Sichuan should be with Chuanxi, not Chuanbei. I don't think the capital of Sichuan has ever been in the northern province, it has always been at Chengdu.
- Maybe add a "Wanxian/Wushan" colour and an "Other Sichuan" colour, so the division of Sichuan during the late warlord period can be represented with this colour scheme (Liu Wenhui:Chuannan, Liu Xiang:Chongqing, Deng Xihou:Chuanxi, Tian Songyao:Chuanbei, Yang Sen:Wanxian, Liu Cunhou:Other Sichuan).

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

but is there really a good reason for having this many colours for random uninhabited islands in the South China Sea?

Also regarding the Mount Tai colour (and other colours that you think are unnecessary, if there are any): What about doubling them for ideologica colours like a far-right, technocratic or militarist China? Or for religious variations, e.g. a Hindu/Indian China, @erictom333 ?

I like your detailed post, though I have no real opinion on it as I don't know all that much about the details of history of China.

 

[erictom333]

Some comments:

Thank you for deconstructing my choices. Many of these I inherited from the old DCS because I didn't know where else to put them. Regarding why there are so many colors for uninhabited islands in the South China Sea, I'm taking into account potential risen lands in alternate geography timelines. This is also why I have been so thorough in the North Atlantic, Mediterranean, and North Pacific.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

uninhabited islands in the South China Sea, I'm taking into account potential risen lands in alternate geography timelines. This is also why I have been so thorough in the North Atlantic, Mediterranean, and North Pacific.

A good idea actually! Despite you thinking about lost continents/fictional lands etc., I could also imagine using some of the South China Sea colours for different ideological or religious variants of China.

 

[erictom333]

Just redid many of China's colors as per Linbot's suggestions. Anything I haven't replied to I have either fixed or ignored.

- ... Tuoba Wei as an alternate use for Northern Shanxi.

The Tuoba Wei will wait until I do East Central Asia, which will have a Taghbach color.

By "Northwestern Clique", I assume you mean Yang Hucheng's armed forces? This colour should really have Feng Yuxiang and the Guominjun as an alternate use, since Yang Hucheng was a subordinate of Feng Yuxiang. It doesn't make that much sense to have Feng Yuxiang be an alternate use for Ningxia.

I think it is referring to the Ma clique, which did control Ningxia.

- My suggestion is to just get rid of the Gansu colour. Tuyuhun should be an alternate use for the Tangut colour.

The Tanguts and Tuyuhuns are two completely unrelated peoples, so I've kept them separate.

In general, I think that the Jiangnan category should actually be in the South China section. Also, rename it to "Eastern China" or "Lower Yangtze Region". And move the Fujian colours to this section.

I wasn't sure if the Jiangnan region should be in North or South China (it straddles both).

- The Guangxi colour should refer to Liuzhou specifically and not Guangxi in general, since the fact that you include the Zhuangs as an alternate use implies that you really mean the western part of the province here, and Nanning and Guilin are the actual historical capitals of Guangxi.

My personal preference, as I associate Guangxi inherently with the Zhuangs.

- Nanzhao should really be an alternate use for the Primary Yi colour, since it was the ethnically Yi state.

Again my personal preference.

- Why can't the last section just be called "South China Sea Islands"? Are Taiwan and Hainan not islands in or around the SCS?

Taiwan is more East China Sea than South China Sea, and "South China Sea islands" mostly refers to all of the tiny islands that are heavily disputed in OTL.

 

[erictom333]

Here's Eastern Central Asia. Once again @Linbot, can you see if I made any glaring mistakes? I've also updated the North and South China sections:

Spoiler: Revised North and South China sections

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

@erictom333 , we definitely need significantly more colours for Southeast Asia when you get to that section...

 

[erictom333]

@erictom333 , we definitely need significantly more colours for Southeast Asia when you get to that section...

That's up next.

 

[Linbot]

View attachment 807537
Here's Eastern Central Asia. Once again @Linbot, can you see if I made any glaring mistakes? I've also updated the North and South China sections:

Spoiler: Revised North and South China sections

View attachment 807538

- May I ask what the purpose, exactly, is of having Northern Yuan not be the same colour as Mongol Empire? That just seems weird to me.
- Chahar and Xilingol actually aren't the same thing. The province of Chahar included Xilingol, but the region that the name Chahar originates from to is just south of Xilingol, the northern half of modern Zhangjiakou prefecture. This is the location of the Chahar banners during Qing, which the Chahar Province was named after.
- It probably isn't a good idea for the Dungan Revolt to share a colour with the Uyghurs. The First East Turkestan Republic existed at the same time as the Dungan Revolt, and the Dungan Revolt's soldiers and leadership were almost entirely Han Chinese as far as I know.

I think it is referring to the Ma clique, which did control Ningxia.

Then why do you have a completely separate Ma Clique colour?

The Tanguts and Tuyuhuns are two completely unrelated peoples, so I've kept them separate.

But why synonymise Lanzhou and Tuyuhun? Tuyuhun was found in modern-day Qinghai. The state of Former Liang, a contemporary of Tuyuhun, actually had its capital at the city now called Lanzhou. You actually have another colour right now that is already for Lanzhou, the Upper Yellow River one. That works fine. Just make the Tuyuhun colour be for Tuyuhun alone, then. It's just so weird to mix it up with Gansu and Lanzhou.

I wasn't sure if the Jiangnan region should be in North or South China (it straddles both).

I would argue that it is more southern than northern. Both Anhui and Jiangsu have their traditional political centres south of the Huaihe (the traditional boundary between north and south). Also, you have no colours for any part of Jiangnan north of this line! You've not given Northern Anhui or Northern Jiangsu any colours.

My personal preference, as I associate Guangxi inherently with the Zhuangs.

That is not how it works. What if I'm trying to depict a Zhuang rebellion against the Guangxi provincial government in the 19th century, or in the 1920s? Guangxi being associated with the Zhuang ethnic group is a modern development.

Taiwan is more East China Sea than South China Sea, and "South China Sea islands" mostly refers to all of the tiny islands that are heavily disputed in OTL.

Taiwan, sure. But saying "Hainan, and the South China Sea islands" is like having a category labelled "Japan and Hokkaido". It's redundant. Chinese maps of the south china sea islands tend to include Hainan.

 

[erictom333]

- May I ask what the purpose, exactly, is of having Northern Yuan not be the same colour as Mongol Empire? That just seems weird to me.

Fixed.

- Chahar and Xilingol actually aren't the same thing. The province of Chahar included Xilingol, but the region that the name Chahar originates from to is just south of Xilingol, the northern half of modern Zhangjiakou prefecture. This is the location of the Chahar banners during Qing, which the Chahar Province was named after.

The Chahar Mongols, which Chahar province was named after (according to Wikipedia, although there are no citations, but I presume the Qing-era Chahar banners were named after them), did live in Xilingol. Plus I already have a color for Zhangjiakou.

- It probably isn't a good idea for the Dungan Revolt to share a colour with the Uyghurs. The First East Turkestan Republic existed at the same time as the Dungan Revolt, and the Dungan Revolt's soldiers and leadership were almost entirely Han Chinese as far as I know.

Fixed.

Then why do you have a completely separate Ma Clique colour?

Fixed.

But why synonymise Lanzhou and Tuyuhun? Tuyuhun was found in modern-day Qinghai. The state of Former Liang, a contemporary of Tuyuhun, actually had its capital at the city now called Lanzhou. You actually have another colour right now that is already for Lanzhou, the Upper Yellow River one. That works fine. Just make the Tuyuhun colour be for Tuyuhun alone, then. It's just so weird to mix it up with Gansu and Lanzhou.

Would making the Tuyuhuns synonymous with Haixi work?

I would argue that it is more southern than northern. Both Anhui and Jiangsu have their traditional political centres south of the Huaihe (the traditional boundary between north and south). Also, you have no colours for any part of Jiangnan north of this line! You've not given Northern Anhui or Northern Jiangsu any colours.

Fixed, and added Fujian to the section (although this does make the South China section really big).

That is not how it works. What if I'm trying to depict a Zhuang rebellion against the Guangxi provincial government in the 19th century, or in the 1920s? Guangxi being associated with the Zhuang ethnic group is a modern development.

Use the Nanning or Wuzhou colors for the Zhuang provincial government, and the main Guangxi colors for the Zhuang.

Taiwan, sure. But saying "Hainan, and the South China Sea islands" is like having a category labelled "Japan and Hokkaido". It's redundant. Chinese maps of the south china sea islands tend to include Hainan.

See my second point. I will specify "and other South China Sea Islands" to be more precise.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

(although this does make the South China section really big).

A bigger section has never done any harm!

 

[erictom333]

Here's Mainland Southeast Asia, now with 111% more colors!

 

[erictom333]

Another major expansion, this time the Philippines.

 

[Frank Hart]

View attachment 808434
Another major expansion, this time the Philippines.

Minor suggestion, your division of the Philippines should be Luzon/Vizayas/Mindanao, instead of Northern/Southern Philippines. Culturally the former divide makes more sense.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

Here's Mainland Southeast Asia, now with 111% more colors!

Excellent! What about Myanmar, though? Will that be part of an Indian section?

 

[erictom333]

Excellent! What about Myanmar, though? Will that be part of an Indian section?

Yes, it will be in a section woth Bengal and eastern India.
Also, should I continue Indonesia and then Oceania, or do the Middle East and South Asia first?

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

Yes, it will be in a section woth Bengal and eastern India.
Also, should I continue Indonesia and then Oceania, or do the Middle East and South Asia first?

I would continue with South Asia and/or the Middle East.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

@erictom333 , I think this saffron colour which I used here ould be a very good colour for a Hindutva extremist/Hindu nationalist (far-right) India. What do you think? It's the saffron colour used by the RSS, for example.

 

[erictom333]

@erictom333 , I think this saffron colour which I used here ould be a very good colour for a Hindutva extremist/Hindu nationalist (far-right) India. What do you think? It's the saffron colour used by the RSS, for example.

I'll take that into account when I get to India, but I'm still working on Iraq.

 

[da Racontor]

I just noticed, there is no specific color for an "undefined border". Is that intentional? Because that could be quite useful in earlier maps.