DBWI: World today if the USSR fell in late 80's/early 90's?

What if the Soviet Collapsed in the late 80's or early 90's? IMO, the easiest POD is preventing Gorbachev's fatal heart attack in 1985. If perestroika and glasnost were implemented, the nationalist revolts of the 1990's might have succeeded.

Any other thoughts as to how the 21st century might look without the USSR?
 
What if the Soviet Collapsed in the late 80's or early 90's? IMO, the easiest POD is preventing Gorbachev's fatal heart attack in 1985. If perestroika and glasnost were implemented, the nationalist revolts of the 1990's might have succeeded.

Any other thoughts as to how the 21st century might look without the USSR?



It did. the USSR died in 91. it collpased after Gorbachev's heart attack. in the late 80s. so this theard makes no sense
 
Well, its a hard question, as it could have changed so much. Firstly, the economies could have either been wrecked by war amongst the various Soviet successor states that might emerge, or without the constricting Soviet economic system, they may flourish if there is peace.

Another thing that may be changed is what would happen with the foreign Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. If the Soviet Union collapsed, then they wouldn't have the masses of Muslims in Central Asia to attempt to "liberate" from the Soviet yolk (even if they did fail miserably in OTL). Maybe their efforts would turn to Kashmir in India, or Xinjing in China to "liberate" the Muslims in those places.

The USA might also have entered a new era of prosperity. With the one power that posed a challenge to their hegemony out of the way, the Americans could finally reduce military spending levels and prehaps spend the money on infrastructure, education, or other things to benefit their populace instead of funneling money into the DOD like in OTL.
 
The USA might also have entered a new era of prosperity. With the one power that posed a challenge to their hegemony out of the way, the Americans could finally reduce military spending levels and prehaps spend the money on infrastructure, education, or other things to benefit their populace instead of funneling money into the DOD like in OTL.

its an odd wet dream of my leftie friends, have Gorbachev's reforms fail, end the USSR to get socialism here in the US, as cool as our space based star wars missile defense system is I'd much rather have free health care

thought, if the Gorbachev's reforms failed what would become of the Student lead Chinese Revolution of 1989? with out the USSR's boom to push them forward would the social democracy never been founded, what about the slow joining of the RoC with the mainland under the "One Country, two systems" model?
 
What if the Soviet Collapsed in the late 80's or early 90's? IMO, the easiest POD is preventing Gorbachev's fatal heart attack in 1985. If perestroika and glasnost were implemented, the nationalist revolts of the 1990's might have succeeded.

Any other thoughts as to how the 21st century might look without the USSR?
No 9/11 attacks on Leningrad is likely. North Korea's end might be different, too.
 
Well, maybe if that had happened, there wouldn't be the massive uprising in the Warsaw Pact. Amazing how the internet changed things, even if it was illegal in all eastern pact countries. Amazing how one concealed cell phone video of that riot in Bucharest, Facebook, and YouTube can set all of eastern Europe on fire. There are even riots in Ukraine and Byelorussia last time I heard, not to mention the fact that the caucasus and the Baltic republics are just as bad as the rest of the Warsaw Pact. I hate to celebrate anyone's death, but for the Eastern Spring's sake, thank god Putin had that brain hemmorage in 2005.
OOC: "brain hemmorage," mwahahahaha
 
Well, maybe if that had happened, there wouldn't be the massive uprising in the Warsaw Pact. Amazing how the internet changed things, even if it was illegal in all eastern pact countries. Amazing how one concealed cell phone video of that riot in Bucharest, Facebook, and YouTube can set all of eastern Europe on fire. There are even riots in Ukraine and Byelorussia last time I heard, not to mention the fact that the caucasus and the Baltic republics are just as bad as the rest of the Warsaw Pact. I hate to celebrate anyone's death, but for the Eastern Spring's sake, thank god Putin had that brain hemmorage in 2005.
OOC: "brain hemmorage," mwahahahaha

Quite. If the USSR fell apart, the forces keeping the communist regimes in power would have gone with it, perhaps as early as 1988. Perhaps even a united Germany.

We'd also have to consider the economic shock of a rapid disintegration of the state. All that corrupt bureaucracy falling into the hands of not-necessarily-better capitalists...it sets one up for economic stagnation.

Perhaps enough to get the Buran-Energia Program (driven, at times, only by the Red Army before it reached fruition in 1989) cancelled. Mir would fall into the ocean in the early 1990s, and no Mir II successor.

I'd figure that, were the USSR to fall apart to such an extent, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Balts would have no alternative but to follow the former Peoples' Republics into the European Union.
 
I think this is wishful thinking.

The Soviet Union managed to survive a variety of problems:
External attacks and internal turmoil in the 1920s.
The "Quantity" economic problem in the 1930s, and the excesses of the Personality Cult.
The most horrific warfare imaginable in the 1940s.
"Quantitative" recovery in the 1950s.
The failure to transition to "Quality" in the 1960s and 1970s, combined with a failure of institutional renewal in the 1970s.
And the very real challenges of Qualitative development succeeding in the 1980s, combined with institutional renewal.

I find it hard to imagine how the junior technocrats and nomenklatura of the 1980s would avoid the development of large modern factories, with just in time production, and norms bonuses. These "factories of a new kind" ended up producing much of the electronics and consumer goods demanded by Europe, Japan, and perversely enough the United States.

Almost everyone I know owns an Nokia MyMuse or MyPhone. While Nokia might be Finnish, the music players and phones are made in the massive Гнездо завода лисы complex (Fox Nest Factory). Some people claim that the working standards for the young Soviet women and men in the Fox Nest are inhuman—and there have been a number of suicides reported by Soviet VaXDiarisers—but the wages and living standards of the young Foxes are far above workers in the "Quantitative" Soviet factories.

Honestly, to have the Soviet Union fall would require an economic calamity and a failure to modernise. The Soviet Mode of Production, while not Socialism by any stretch, is as viable and self-supporting between moments of crisis as the Western Mode of Production.[1]

I'll give you one thing. Perhaps if Allende's Chile had failed to demonstrate the success of Networked Socialisation, then the Soviet Union might have failed to invest in Кибернетические Синхронизация (Computerised Economic Planning). But by 1982 with the KremVax up and running, and demonstrating success in planning, particularly in the "New Qualitative Plants", there was no chance of the Soviet Union being governed by a successive generation of elderly failures clinging to the Great Patriotic War like drunken asses.[2]

The growth of the Computerised Restructuring movement and the Electronic Openness movement in the Soviet Union empowered the young party members and bureaucrats against the old; and the dominance of Government stooge VaXDiarisers over the Diarisphere is obvious. Hell, the successful mtlbh[3] format was derived conceptually from the VaxChat sidechannel on the Soviet planning computers, and who doesn't use the rtme?[4]

* * *

Okay, so someone here might suggest that the what-if is credible given the economic and social collapse of China; but given the two hundred years of chaos and colonialism in China, seeing it Unified under a despotic and self-slaughtering regime for forty years isn't unsurprising. China is simply chaotic, unlike the Soviet Union.

yours,
Sam R.


[1] I'll avoid arguing the point with Eurocommunists of the Communist Parties, or with the Trotskyites with their bizarre assertions of an Eastern form of Capitalism.
[2] OOT: Project Cybersyn obviously.
[3] Minitel Hypertext Markup Language; miniature de téléphonie langage de balisage hypertexte
[4] World-wide rhyzome, Rhyzome travers le monde entier. See mtlbh:/rtme.папациклопедии.ака.su/en/rtme for details, it is an article vedette so it should be trust worthy.[5]
[5] OOT: www.(from Finnish: fast)cyclopedia.academic.soviet union / english / www
 
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Facebook, and YouTube

Surely you mean Visage-personnels.soc.fr and Ma-vidéo.culturel.fr, non? Or are these some obscure American thing? I know the US has its own version of Ma maison, but, sjmsb[1] not even the other Anglophones use it!

It sounds like you're trolling with some kind of четыре-клевера.культур.su attitude, like the time they plundered mtlbh:/deux-points-barre-oblique-point.minitel.fr and kept прокат гуся[2] with the shock image at obuaаan.us[3].

yours,
Sam R.

[1] Si je me souviens bien, IIRC
[2] Rolled goose. Who knows where Russians get this stuff from? Almost everyone has been rolled geese with the Ансамбль "Рондо", (Ensemble Rondo) short film by now. American posters might be banned from the most famous Ma-vidéo.culturel version of the clip,[4] so I dug out a copy for you guys on your "your tube" site. (I promise it isn't an obuaaan) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMy3lsCsqpU&feature=related
[3] овца, sheep.
[4] The rtme in the US is full of charlatans, cheats, criminals and worm writers.
 
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Surely you mean Visage-personnels.soc.fr and Ma-vidéo.culturel.fr, non? Or are these some obscure American thing? I know the US has its own version of Ma maison, but, sjmsb[1] not even the other Anglophones use it!

Oh, come off your high horse. So, youse Europeans got your own internet now. La-de-dah. Stop trying to make it sound like it's taken over the world. It hasn't. Last I saw, the .fr, .de and other Euro domain spaces combined were still at most a tenth of the size of the .us, let alone the .com, .org and .edu. The .ru is about a quarter, but most of it's in the offlimits government spectrum.

And frankly, considering the number of Canadian, British and Australian friends I have on my Facebook account, there are obviously plenty of anglophones using it. Heck, even the German meinbuch.de basically licenses the same software.

And don't get me started on that mtlbh mess. It's so drastically outdated, full of keywords extracted from so many different human languages, so that no one can program it without having to have a dictionary handy. It even still uses and promotes its <tabelle> tag for layout, and still lets you mix the style into the content, and they have yet to come up with any sort of scripting support for dynamic downloading of data (The French Academie de Internetworking, or whatever it's called, is too afraid of the security issues and offending the ma-and-pa page design shops). Meaning european 'net pages' still look like they were written in the 1980's, and have to rely on Splash applets to do anything remotely interesting.

I mean, yes, it was the basis for modern AHTL, but Jobs knew what he was doing when he hired Berners-Lee, Eich, Pemberton and Gosling to rewrite it. Fortunately, it took off before the anti-trust proceedings, and the government and Microsoft were able to force an open standard.

If our browsers didn't have to support that mess, as well as the Russian and Chinese page schemes (Now that's annoying, you have to buy a special stickers for your keyboard just to program in them), they wouldn't be so bogged down and full of bloat. And maybe I'd have some room on my computer to put some pictures and music.

Oh, and Nokias may be popular in Europe, but most people in U.S. and Canada have Motorola and Sony (pretty much the only two lines available through AT&T, Bell-Warner and Virgin, although the former two and NorthAmCell have some Zeniths). Trying to sell a Nokia here, it's almost as tough as trying to sell a Lada.
 
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I think at last count there were about 20 million Facebook accounts across the Anglosphere. If you add the meinbuch.de to that, it comes up to about 25 million, and other spinoffs probably bring it to about 28 million using social networking sites off the Facebook license.

@Swan Station: Have you considered getting the Russivize and Chinivize programs from Stallman Labs? Just run an askjeeves on them - they're freeware, don't take too much hard drive space, and will solve those pesky programming incompatibility issues. Viewing and interpreting the page source on the non-Anglophone internets otherwise is a nightmare.

I thought about making a Ribbit account, but I'm not sure about it. For one thing, they limit you to only 256 characters a post.
 
Well if the Soviet's had collpased in late 80s early 90s. the world would be a much better place. the Communist presence is horrible on our world. and needs to be stoped.
 
@Swan Station: Have you considered getting the Russivize and Chinivize programs from Stallman Labs?

Yeah, we use them regularly. Then we send the results to our contractors in Shanghai and Nice (we don't have any clients in Russia, obviously), who end up having to completely rewrite them to get it to look like the client actually wants. It helps them get started, though.

Basically, though, the company I work for makes enough money doing sites for the Americas, Australia, Britain and Japan that we don't usually need to deal with those other internets.
 

sharlin

Banned
Ms Abby I'd say that the Soviets were quite helpful in the 1994 invasion of Iraq. They sent a significant fleet as well as troops and aircraft which operated from Saudi Arabia and their own holdings once they got fly over permission from Turkey. It was Russian TU-160's that bombed and destroyed a Republican Guard division as it withdrew from Kuwait.

I can't say I agree with the communist idea, in essence, its a great idea and I always thought it would not work, yet the Soviets have managed to keep going. Then again they've gone away from the Stalinist Communism and are becoming more liberal as the years march by.
 
Ms Abby I'd say that the Soviets were quite helpful in the 1994 invasion of Iraq. They sent a significant fleet as well as troops and aircraft which operated from Saudi Arabia and their own holdings once they got fly over permission from Turkey. It was Russian TU-160's that bombed and destroyed a Republican Guard division as it withdrew from Kuwait.

I can't say I agree with the communist idea, in essence, its a great idea and I always thought it would not work, yet the Soviets have managed to keep going. Then again they've gone away from the Stalinist Communism and are becoming more liberal as the years march by.


true. USSR has become more liberal and leaning to more democratic like ideals. vs full force Stalinist Communism. but I still don't trust them. and wish they would just go away. does that make sense?
 
true. USSR has become more liberal and leaning to more democratic like ideals. vs full force Stalinist Communism.

Tell that to whatshisface, that KGB guy that suceeded Putin in 2005:rolleyes:. All of Gorby's reforms that Putin had tolerated got rolled back. Another question: how does a man who's supposed to be in "excellent physical condition" have a brain hemmorage?
 
I was just over in Leningard last January and picked up a real weird book about this - apparently they have quite a big alternate history community in the USSR. It makes pretty grim reading, it starts off with optimism and seems to suggest some kind of Capitalist utopia is at hand, but then everything goes down hill real quickly and gets really confusing. Yugoslavia breaks up for starters, I mean seriously, it actually just collapses because of 'nationalism' as if were the Middle Ages and NATO of all things has to intervene. I mean, NATO? Isn't the whole point of NATO that it only deals with defending member states? Seems their just keen to demonise the West as vicious Imperialists. Why on earth would any modern European nation just turn on itself because of abstract historical grudges? And Kosovo an independent nation! Totally ASB!

It gets even weirder from then on. America and NATO invade a Islamic Afghanistan run by a load of totally bonkers thugs, the implication being that without the guiding hand of the Soviets Afghanistan would somehow turn into a Fascist hell hole.
 
speaking of phones, i wonder if without the USSR that Nokia (if they had even kept in the phone biz, the Gorba 3 and 4 really kept them afloat where they should have drowned) would have ended up without the "Droid" OS?

The main reason you don't see it outside europe is that it's so heavily regulated these days, nothing but censored applications get through (and i'm so bored of that Internationale ringer fad). It might be ASB (and tastefully ironic) but maybe ITTL they make something classy and run with Microsoft's mobile OS :D
 
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