DBWI: WI Germany not united in 1848?

IOTL, the Russian Tsar Nicholas got cancer, keeping him bed ridden, but also still leaving him the official leader of Russia even though he was no longer able to make decisions. This was at about the right time, during the revolutions of 1848. As a result, the Russian leadership was incapacited and didn't intervene in Hungary. The Habsburg Empire fell apart into a Hungarian Republic and the Cisleithanian half still known as the Austrian Empire.

Russian weakness led to Prussian king Frederick William IV to accept the crown, but with several monarchist changes to the liberal constitution of the Frankfurt Assembly. His subsequent victory over Denmark and annexation of Schleswig-Holstein led to the German princes flocking to Prussia while Austria fell apart and Cisleithania was largely absorbed into Germany except for Galicia which was conquered by Russia after they had put down the revolting Poles. A secondary consequence was Italian unification in 1848.

WI Tsar Nicholas I had been fully capable of leading Russia and had squashed the Hungarians and had also curbed Prussian power and their victory over Denmark?
 
The pressure in all classes of German society was too strong.
It could be delayed, but not prevented. If it would not succeed at once, it would have happened two or three years later.
 

Giladis

Banned
The Hungarians were as good as beaten when Russians entered the game, so without Russian intervention it would have taken a bit longer but it would still happen.

The forces from Croatia and military frontier where the key to eliminating this revolt. Keep them out of the fray (which will be hard considering the blazing Hungarian nationalism) and your scenario may be possible.
 
The Hungarians were as good as beaten when Russians entered the game, so without Russian intervention it would have taken a bit longer but it would still happen.

The forces from Croatia and military frontier where the key to eliminating this revolt. Keep them out of the fray (which will be hard considering the blazing Hungarian nationalism) and your scenario may be possible.

OOC: Do you not understand the concept of a DBWI? We're talking from the viewpoint of an ATL.
 
I'd suppose that the Prussians would lose major prestige, right? Obviously, then, they won't have a second chance at it-- Bavaria or Hanover, most likely, would step up to take Prussia's place.
 
I'd suppose that the Prussians would lose major prestige, right? Obviously, then, they won't have a second chance at it-- Bavaria or Hanover, most likely, would step up to take Prussia's place.

Would Hannover or Bavaria be powerful enough militarily to unite Germany. As for Bavaria, wouldn't their Catholicism be a stumbling block to swallow a majority Protestant Prussia (and the rest of northern Germany)?
 
Would Hannover or Bavaria be powerful enough militarily to unite Germany. As for Bavaria, wouldn't their Catholicism be a stumbling block to swallow a majority Protestant Prussia (and the rest of northern Germany)?
At the very least, northern and southern blocs could be formed by the two states.

Would either Bavaria or Hanover necessarily have to unite by conquest? I mean, look at OTL-- surely they could just try to pull off another Frankfurt 10, 20 years down the road, right?
 

Giladis

Banned
OOC: Do you not understand the concept of a DBWI? We're talking from the viewpoint of an ATL.

I appologize for the misunderstanding. I am trying to get all the shortening as best as I can. I just though it was a more elabourate way of "what if".
 
I could Imagine the Austrians focusing on southern Germany to make up their losses in Hungary. So you could have a Catholic, Hapsburg ruled, Austrian dominated, South Germany against a Protestant, Hohenzollern ruled, Prussian dominated, North Germany.
 
OOC: sorry for that :eek:. Board members that have been around here longer can get impatient with new guys.

DBWI stands for Double Blind What If. In such a thread, you look at things from the point of view of a different TL like 'WI the Central Powers lost WW I' or some such things. OOC stands for Out Of Context btw.
 
I appologize for the misunderstanding. I am trying to get all the shortening as best as I can. I just though it was a more elabourate way of "what if".
I still get confused by the term myself, but I think it means either "Double-Blind What-If" or "Double-Backwards What-If" or something along those lines-- the basic gist is what Onkel Willie said, anyways.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Perhaps Russian intervention to save a collapsing Austria could have turned the Austrian monarchy into a Russian client, giving Russia some much-needed help in the onslaught of the Eastern War. Although it is still way questionable whether even Austria could have done much to help against a coalition of Britain, Germany, Italy, Sweden, and Turkey. But at least Russia would not have been forced to fight Hungary, too.
 
I'd suppose that the Prussians would lose major prestige, right? Obviously, then, they won't have a second chance at it-- Bavaria or Hanover, most likely, would step up to take Prussia's place.

You mean Prussia's place as the second power in Germany after Austria?


I mean, look at OTL-- surely they could just try to pull off another Frankfurt 10, 20 years down the road, right?

I don't think so. As much as I am convinced that unification was almost unavoidable at its time, I also think that if it _can_ be suppressed long enough, then its time will eventually be gone. It is hardly imaginable that the people keep dreaming of a united fatherland and pursuing it concretely and soon, for more than four decades ...
At some point, every idea wears off.

I could Imagine the Austrians focusing on southern Germany to make up their losses in Hungary. So you could have a Catholic, Hapsburg ruled, Austrian dominated, South Germany against a Protestant, Hohenzollern ruled, Prussian dominated, North Germany.

Perhaps Austria would try to achieve such an incomplete unification for their own sake.
But I don't believe that Prussia would do the like.

Only Austria as the central figure in the German Union could present any such decisions to the world. If they did want to grap themselves Southern Germany without having to meddle with the Prussians and Hannoverans, then resistance would be too large for e.g. Prussia to act similarly. Austria could declare either that a) this is a unification on a lower level (Austria, not Germany), or that b) for some reason, Prussia and whatever states otherwise they left out has done something really bad and does not deserve to be included into a unified Germany.
But if this has happened, there is nothing to vindicate a similar step from Prussia's side . People would be furious about it, as it would only entrench disunity.
 
What effects might a Germany that is still divided post-1848 have on the Luxembourg Crisis of 1858? Many feared that the French, fresh from deposing Louis-Philippe might choose to rattle their sabres, but of course the newly united Germany proved a deterrent. Would we see the German Confederation, if it stumbles into the 1850s clash with France?
 
Would we really have a Great Eastern War? Prussia was traditional friendly to Russia. Couldn´t it stay neutral? And would Britain declare war to Russia without Germany and Hungary as allies? And without the Eastern War, would Britain propably support the french Intervention in the First American War? Would it propably end with a stronger CSA, which keeps Missourie, Kentucky and Tennesee and propably last till today.
 
Last edited:
Top