DBWI: Why do the Germans get such a bad rap?

:)
Actually that series is about as Germanphobic as it can get. So Germany goes off conquering Europe and using slave labor the first time, then ekes out a near-victory only to get smashed to bits in the last phase. That was bad enough, if somewhat interesting. The demented insane maniacs that ran Germany into the ground the second time? I swear that man was trying to shoehorn in his fantasy background. And not even effectively. :rolleyes:

Hitler and Stalin sound more like Dark Lords than proper humans, albeit Stalin is kind of like a Peter the Great on steroids. But what the Hell was all that stuff with having Germany engage in a wholesale genocide on the horrifying scales Hitler was intending? Did that guy's dog get run over by a German or something? :mad: And again there's the whole "ten million dead Soviets" turns into "Hammer and Sickle over the Reichstag." That is completely impossible, any state that loses that much in that short amount of time would collapse.

Anyone who posted such drivel even in the ASB forum would be quickly laughed out of here. Gimme a break, as if we're supposed believe that a people such as the Germans, with their great contributions in art, culture, music, science and engineering, would elect an uneducated genocidal racist to lead them is unimaginable. Exactly what drugs was Turtledove on when he wrote this garbage? :rolleyes:

And the Soviet/Russian part of his story is just as ASB. To believe that a people who took such enormous losses in that brutal war would not only conquer half of Europe but also be the first to put a man in space? And then, we're supposed to believe that such a great power would simply implode and collapse by 1991? Seriously? How is this Turtledove even taken seriously as a writer?
 
:)

Anyone who posted such drivel even in the ASB forum would be quickly laughed out of here. Gimme a break, as if we're supposed believe that a people such as the Germans, with their great contributions in art, culture, music, science and engineering, would elect an uneducated genocidal racist to lead them is unimaginable. Exactly what drugs was Turtledove on when he wrote this garbage? :rolleyes:

And the Soviet/Russian part of his story is just as ASB. To believe that a people who took such enormous losses in that brutal war would not only conquer half of Europe but also be the first to put a man in space? And then, we're supposed to believe that such a great power would simply implode and collapse by 1991? Seriously? How is this Turtledove even taken seriously as a writer?

OOC: I wonder if Turtledove reads all these DBWI's where people criticize his hypothetical books lol
 
OOC: I wonder if Turtledove reads all these DBWI's where people criticize his hypothetical books lol

OOC: It's not that much different than the criticisms for the books he actually writes, though that may be our biases, amusingly enough.

IC:

Well, he is trying for the Soviet Union to be the Empire of Evil, it collapsing suddenly is part of the fantasy genre - or at least the half that has copied Tolkien without any depth does.

Still.

And some of our members are going too far with this "Germany would never be so anitsemitic" thing. Certainly the genocide - what did he call it, the Holocaust? - is insane, but the whole "blame the Jews as behind everything" has very deep roots, and his TTL's Germany has a lot of built up anger at the liberal capitalist society.

You'd think that would have made it go Red, though. Or even more firmly entrench the old order conservatives as part of the glory days.

But noooooo.
 
OOC: It's not that much different than the criticisms for the books he actually writes, though that may be our biases, amusingly enough.

IC:

Well, he is trying for the Soviet Union to be the Empire of Evil, it collapsing suddenly is part of the fantasy genre - or at least the half that has copied Tolkien without any depth does.

Still.

And some of our members are going too far with this "Germany would never be so anitsemitic" thing. Certainly the genocide - what did he call it, the Holocaust? - is insane, but the whole "blame the Jews as behind everything" has very deep roots, and his TTL's Germany has a lot of built up anger at the liberal capitalist society.

You'd think that would have made it go Red, though. Or even more firmly entrench the old order conservatives as part of the glory days.

But noooooo.

Why would anti-semitism make Germany go Red?
 
Why would anti-semitism make Germany go Red?

Not the anti-semitism, the hostility it had for the powers like England. Although if the Jews are bankers, and bankers are the enemy . . .

I dunno, personally I think Turtledove's Germany is just a bunch of German bashing nonsense.
 
:)

Anyone who posted such drivel even in the ASB forum would be quickly laughed out of here. Gimme a break, as if we're supposed believe that a people such as the Germans, with their great contributions in art, culture, music, science and engineering, would elect an uneducated genocidal racist to lead them is unimaginable. Exactly what drugs was Turtledove on when he wrote this garbage? :rolleyes:

And the Soviet/Russian part of his story is just as ASB. To believe that a people who took such enormous losses in that brutal war would not only conquer half of Europe but also be the first to put a man in space? And then, we're supposed to believe that such a great power would simply implode and collapse by 1991? Seriously? How is this Turtledove even taken seriously as a writer?

Well, technically, the Evil Power of the North suddenly collapsing is Tolkien-inspired as Elfwine noted. Though in this case I suppose he imitated Mordor for an attempt to avoid the whole plagiarizing The War of the Jewels criticism. The Lord of the Rings makes much easier reading anyhow. ;):p
 
Not the anti-semitism, the hostility it had for the powers like England. Although if the Jews are bankers, and bankers are the enemy . . .

I dunno, personally I think Turtledove's Germany is just a bunch of German bashing nonsense.

To say nothing of his Soviet Union being Russian-bashing nonsense. I think it's pretty clear that Turtledove's a Europhobe with all this. :rolleyes:
 
To say nothing of his Soviet Union being Russian-bashing nonsense. I think it's pretty clear that Turtledove's a Europhobe with all this. :rolleyes:

No kidding. I'd say Polish, but Poland gets screwed so hard by both Germany and the Russians before their states collapse in his books he obviously hates the Poles too.
 
No kidding. I'd say Polish, but Poland gets screwed so hard by both Germany and the Russians before their states collapse in his books he obviously hates the Poles too.

And of course France takes most of the casualties and the nastiest battles of the WWI phase to collapse in six weeks in the WWII series. :rolleyes:
 
that and the Soviets spamming the T34 ruined it for me.

What did Turtledove say?

40,000 t-34's

and 40,000 shermans.

Hell when the USA defeated communist mexico and west canada it only built 5000 Lee's in the whole war, Turtledove just pulled those figures from his ass as usual.

well, the Shermans weren't a total guess. I remember seeing an interview with HT in some magazine, where he got that from. Apparently, he was assuming the USA goes into a 'total war' mass production mode, supplying not only the US army, but part of the British army and even sending some to the Soviets. He took the 40,000 number from some military guy's calculation as to what the USA could build if it converted completely over to war production (name was Marshall, IIRC). It also assumes that civilians in the USA would be going through shortages and rationing of various things, such as copper, basic foodstuffs, etc. So, I suppose the 40,000 figure is not really wrong, it would just take an incredibly different set of circumstances to cause it, something that would unite the whole country into war mode. Not sure just how you do that...
 
And of course France takes most of the casualties and the nastiest battles of the WWI phase to collapse in six weeks in the WWII series. :rolleyes:
Yeah but in the book France is not the same has OTL look at it's ridiculous borders and had a lower population and industry then Germany.
 
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