DBWI: What is your opinion on the Soviet leader Alexander Bogdanov?

[Tal Shiar]

Chairman of the Supreme Soviet Union Alexander Bogdanov (1873-1963) died on June 16, 1963 in Moscow at the age of 90. Since 1917 to his retirement on 1947 he was a leader of former Russian Imperial lands becoming the largest state in the world. Soviet Union or Sindikato de Konsilioj (since 1939) became the first and only state to adopt International Language (esperanto), the first one to adopt liberal social policies of feminism, abortion, free education and healthcare (Soviet Constitution of 1918), views on gay rights (Soviet Constitution of 1946) and many others, still prohibited in some ares of the world. Technocratic state assumed leadership over developing countries of Asia and Africa, strenghtening its bonds with a Bogdanovite brand of socialism.

He was sharply criticized and praised at the same time over whole globe.

President of the United States Barry Goldwater pursued policy of containment of the Soviet influences int he world. Since he assumed leadership on 1964, he cut many trade deals resulting in a short-lived depression in the Western world. His support for right-wing authoritarians all across the globe and escalating Space Conflict polarized American society.

Polish historian Mieczysław Rakowski, leader of the Polish Vperedist faction of the Polish Socialist Party ("Przodownicy Polskiej Partii Socjalistycznej"), on 1988 named Bogdanov as the most important person in the 20th century. In his opinion, Soviet leader created rapid rise of technology and standard of living in the poor and backward country ravaged by a war.

Soviet politician Joseph Stalin was the first one to be a voice of opposition inside the country. On 1931 he wrote about necessity of transfering the ownership of economy from the state to the people. He criticized policy of gradual collectivization and several other policies. On 1948 he was banished from the Soviet Union and began working with the Western socialists to undermine Bogdanovite's influences there.

What is your opinion on him?

 

[CountDVB]

He was definitely a visionary, even if he did hve too resort to authoratative means. Granted, his adoptation fo Esperanto wasn't well-recieved since slavic languages weren't taken into account when designing it (which meant it could never replace Russian as the official language along with the other slabic languages.) That and he did little to address the issues regarding some of the people that the Russians tended to mistreat (mainly those of the Far East.)

Goldwater meanwhile seemed reasonable, but his legacy haunts the United States and led to the brain drain to Canada and Mexico until he and the Republican party finally collapsed from the 1980s scandals when it was revealed they were using Ronald Reagan as a puppet president by exploiting his Alzheimer's. The United States finally is a respected power again thaks to basically the work of different leftish presidents, including President Bernie Sanders, who maanged to get alot of those adaopted into the United sTATES.

As for Stalin, his influence on western socialism is actually overrated. They broke off with him soon when they realized he was an authorative nut. Granted, this did provide them an idea on what NOT to do and led to the rise of Christian socialsm. So he was an important influence, albeit in an anti-role model sort of way.

Bogdanov does have a few places named after him in Mexico thogh.

 

[Tal Shiar]

He was definitely a visionary, even if he did hve too resort to authoratative means. Granted, his adoptation fo Esperanto wasn't well-recieved since slavic languages weren't taken into account when designing it (which meant it could never replace Russian as the official language along with the other slabic languages.) That and he did little to address the issues regarding some of the people that the Russians tended to mistreat (mainly those of the Far East.)

Well, I am from Poland so my view can be somewhat biased about the Soviet Union (my country fought with it from 1919 to 1921). But I think that many of these mistreatments incidents can be blamed upon officials who made them. You know, when you employ Tsarist official to be a vanguard of the revolutipon, some things can get corrupted.

Esperanto is a fine language for me. Some people may argue that English is better. They speak it even in China (as a second laguage of course, not official)! But esperanto was the first attempt to create artificial language - marvelous achievement, don't you think? It gained some popularity in 1970s and 1980s when most of the people remembering pre-Soviet times died and were replaced by a second generation of Soviet citizens.

Just like they say: On the eight day, the man created a language.

Goldwater meanwhile seemed reasonable, but his legacy haunts the United States and led to the brain drain to Canada and Mexico until he and the Republican party finally collapsed from the 1980s scandals when it was revealed they were using Ronald Reagan as a puppet president by exploiting his Alzheimer's. The United States finally is a respected power again thaks to basically the work of different leftish presidents, including President Bernie Sanders, who maanged to get alot of those adaopted into the United sTATES.

Barry Goldwater's Presidency was a major turning point in the international relationships. He pursued containment of the socialist movements which backfired later (and created a very successful Western-style social democracy). His space programs alienated European allies (leakage of NERVA reactors above Europe on 1972) and contributed to the rise of an European Union. Neverthless, his first years in the White House and aid programs for a less developed countries already made some big differences in a millions of lives (Chinese economic miracle). And he enacted several Executive Orders to revive anti-racist policies of a late 19th century leading to effective desegregation. (OTL he was supportive of a Civil Rights Movement. His major opposition was related to the government interfering with rights of private persons to do or not to do business with whomever they chose).

As for Stalin, his influence on western socialism is actually overrated. They broke off with him soon when they realized he was an authorative nut. Granted, this did provide them an idea on what NOT to do and led to the rise of Christian socialsm. So he was an important influence, albeit in an anti-role model sort of way.

Man was pretty authoritarian too. I don't know how his leadership would be but his writings emphasized relevance on the masses. Less technocratic, less sophisticated, more direct and (possibly) brutal country would arose.

 

[Kowalski]

Alexander Bogdanov was an authoritarian socialist. He pulled agricultural country into industrial powerhouse and enacted several reforms that gave an impression of being a modern country.

On 1918 he legalized murder. Abortion is a murder in the name of law. Thousands if not millions people died during his reign due to that provision which allowed birth control without pregnacy control.

Creation of the command economy left thousands of people who could make a business as simple workers. Imagine what they could have done if they were allowed to? Collectivization crushed traditional societal links of Russian villages. Since late 1920s automatization of collective farms made millions people unemployed. They fueled new class of poor workers in the cities. Their standard of living improved many decades later.

Suppression of opposition groups was present during his whole reign. Leon Trotsky was banished on 1926, Vyacheslav Molotov on 1937. Many others joined them, forming the Second Russian Emigree wave.

He created the country but at what cost? Barry Goldwater said that every person must pursue personal liberty and equality. Cowboy in the White House was right with his treatment of communists. They had destroyed Russian traditions, delivered several blows for its language, religion and freedom. They should be crushed by a President Wilson on 1917, Roosevelt on 1930s, Goldwater on 1960s or Reagan twenty years later.

Freedom dies in a silence.

 

[Tal Shiar]

Alexander Bogdanov was an authoritarian socialist. He pulled agricultural country into industrial powerhouse and enacted several reforms that gave an impression of being a modern country.

On 1918 he legalized murder. Abortion is a murder in the name of law. Thousands if not millions people died during his reign due to that provision which allowed birth control without pregnacy control.

Creation of the command economy left thousands of people who could make a business as simple workers. Imagine what they could have done if they were allowed to? Collectivization crushed traditional societal links of Russian villages. Since late 1920s automatization of collective farms made millions people unemployed. They fueled new class of poor workers in the cities. Their standard of living improved many decades later.

Suppression of opposition groups was present during his whole reign. Leon Trotsky was banished on 1926, Vyacheslav Molotov on 1937. Many others joined them, forming the Second Russian Emigree wave.

He created the country but at what cost? Barry Goldwater said that every person must pursue personal liberty and equality. Cowboy in the White House was right with his treatment of communists. They had destroyed Russian traditions, delivered several blows for its language, religion and freedom. They should be crushed by a President Wilson on 1917, Roosevelt on 1930s, Goldwater on 1960s or Reagan twenty years later.

Freedom dies in a silence.

We have a Goldwaterite conservative here!

Central planning did a lot of good for a Soviet economy. When Western economy were plunged into recessions (1919-1921, 1928-1931, 1943-1946), Soviet Union under Alexander Bogdanov was in an uninterrupted development. Creation of highly educated technical cadre allowed more pragmatic handle of the economy with a true boom in all areas during late 1940s.

No one is without flaws. Herbet Hoover deported two millions Mexicans from the United States. Quentin Roosevelt virtually halted all exports of oil, raw materials and food to the Japanese Empire, in the end forcing them to seize Phillipines - thus starting the American-Japanese War.

Chiang Kai-Shek's purged communist and socialist movement in China. He even created concentration camps for them in the mountainous ares of China. Men together with their whole families - women, children, even grandchildren were held in a primitive conditions for a decades! Chiang's invasion on Mongolia and Tibert broke international law, yet President Roosevelt praised him as the best of Chinese presidents.

Phillippe Petain overthrow legitimate government due to fears of communism! His short dictatorship saw rapid rise of deaths, mysterious accidents, suppression of communist, socialist, social democratic and anti-colonialist movements.

Fascism engulfed Mediterrain area for more than fifty years. Benito Mussollini, Francisco Franco and many others shed the blood of their fellows in order to achieve "third way" between communism and capitalism.

Capitalism kills twenty millions people per years. Easily preventable deaths from hunger, lack of clean water, diseases are still present due to greed of Western capitalists.

 

[Anchises]

Chairman of the Supreme Soviet Union Alexander Bogdanov (1873-1963) died on June 16, 1963 in Moscow at the age of 90. Since 1917 to his retirement on 1947 he was a leader of former Russian Imperial lands becoming the largest state in the world. Soviet Union or Sindikato de Konsilioj (since 1939) became the first and only state to adopt International Language (esperanto), the first one to adopt liberal social policies of feminism, abortion, free education and healthcare (Soviet Constitution of 1918), views on gay rights (Soviet Constitution of 1946) and many others, still prohibited in some ares of the world. Technocratic state assumed leadership over developing countries of Asia and Africa, strenghtening its bonds with a Bogdanovite brand of socialism.

He was sharply criticized and praised at the same time over whole globe.

President of the United States Barry Goldwater pursued policy of containment of the Soviet influences int he world. Since he assumed leadership on 1964, he cut many trade deals resulting in a short-lived depression in the Western world. His support for right-wing authoritarians all across the globe and escalating Space Conflict polarized American society.

Polish historian Mieczysław Rakowski, leader of the Polish Vperedist faction of the Polish Socialist Party ("Przodownicy Polskiej Partii Socjalistycznej"), on 1988 named Bogdanov as the most important person in the 20th century. In his opinion, Soviet leader created rapid rise of technology and standard of living in the poor and backward country ravaged by a war.

Soviet politician Joseph Stalin was the first one to be a voice of opposition inside the country. On 1931 he wrote about necessity of transfering the ownership of economy from the state to the people. He criticized policy of gradual collectivization and several other policies. On 1948 he was banished from the Soviet Union and began working with the Western socialists to undermine Bogdanovite's influences there.

What is your opinion on him?

That is a very idealistic view.

From my point of view Bogdanov used his progressive policies to score browny points with Western Progressives.

You can be damn sure that he would have "liberated" the Baltic States and Poland, if the Reichswehrdictatorship and later the Greater German Republic (with Anglo-French backing) wouldn't have guaranteed their independence.

And the whole turn to the third world was basically a necessity. Further expansion in Europe wasn't possible and ideological warfare in the third world was the only avenue for the export of the Revolution.

 

[fasquardon]

Bogdanov is often criticised for how he compromised the Revolution by his usage of Tsarist officers and officials - people point to his service as a doctor in WW1 as somehow being evidence of him being a closet Tsarist. But I think that here Bogdanov really was the right man at the right time. The truth is, no mater how the Stalinists or Anarchists might like to claim otherwise, anyone who came out on top after the Russian civil war would have needed former Tsarist skilled manpower to actually run the country. And Bogdanov's patriotic service during the war probably made the Russian civil war much less severe. Would important generals like Brusilov and Miller have joined the Red Army if a man whose only prior achievements had been as a revolutionary thug had been leader? As much as Stalin performed important work during the Revolution, probably being the man most responsible for holding together the Bolshevik-Menshevik-SR coalition through the violent times, the people who hold him up as an alternative to Bogdanov are deluding themselves. He just didn't have the CV to win support like Bogdanov did.

And don't get me started on Trotsky! That grey bureaucrat is only remembered today because Stalin eviscerated him in his writings so memorably!

fasquardon

 

[Tal Shiar]

That is a very idealistic view.

From my point of view Bogdanov used his progressive policies to score browny points with Western Progressives.

You can be damn sure that he would have "liberated" the Baltic States and Poland, if the Reichswehrdictatorship and later the Greater German Republic (with Anglo-French backing) wouldn't have guaranteed their independence.

And the whole turn to the third world was basically a necessity. Further expansion in Europe wasn't possible and ideological warfare in the third world was the only avenue for the export of the Revolution.

If Alexander Bogdanov wasn't progressive technocrat then why he promoted various scientific research on blood transfusion, research on various diseases that could kill millions if not prevented by the Soviet Institute of Medicine? Blood Collectives was an idea he came with. Sharin a blood whith your neighbour (if both of you are healthy) is still a major thing in a Soviet Union. It is truth that hundreds of volunteers died in the beginning but their sacrifices paved the way for a brighter future. (OTL Bogdanov worked on similar blood transfusion programs)

Besides higher aims, Bogdanov improved lifes of millions. Electrification, collectivization and industrialization increased both GDP and GDP per capita. Establishment of thousands schools, technical colleges and universities clearly favour socialist states. Liberation of art from reactionary limits, allowance of nudity in both paintings and movies, depiction of interracial couples, unmarried people living together was a shockingly innovation during thirty years of Bogdanov's reign.

It is true that some liberties had been limited in the past. State Committee for Combating Counterrevolution made some mistakes or the powers they had were abused but it happens everywhere. Every innocent man, woman or a child killed by them sufferred tragic fate. But thousands more were allowed to renounce their anti-state views and live in the Soviet society. White Terror of the states that nearly crippled Soviet Union during 1920s was way worse than Red. You can see how Denikin and his guards treated Jews.

 

[CountDVB]

We have a Goldwaterite conservative here!

Central planning did a lot of good for a Soviet economy. When Western economy were plunged into recessions (1919-1921, 1928-1931, 1943-1946), Soviet Union under Alexander Bogdanov was in an uninterrupted development. Creation of highly educated technical cadre allowed more pragmatic handle of the economy with a true boom in all areas during late 1940s.

No one is without flaws. Herbet Hoover deported two millions Mexicans from the United States. Quentin Roosevelt virtually halted all exports of oil, raw materials and food to the Japanese Empire, in the end forcing them to seize Phillipines - thus starting the American-Japanese War.

Chiang Kai-Shek's purged communist and socialist movement in China. He even created concentration camps for them in the mountainous ares of China. Men together with their whole families - women, children, even grandchildren were held in a primitive conditions for a decades! Chiang's invasion on Mongolia and Tibert broke international law, yet President Roosevelt praised him as the best of Chinese presidents.

Phillippe Petain overthrow legitimate government due to fears of communism! His short dictatorship saw rapid rise of deaths, mysterious accidents, suppression of communist, socialist, social democratic and anti-colonialist movements.

Fascism engulfed Mediterrain area for more than fifty years. Benito Mussollini, Francisco Franco and many others shed the blood of their fellows in order to achieve "third way" between communism and capitalism.

Capitalism kills twenty millions people per years. Easily preventable deaths from hunger, lack of clean water, diseases are still present due to greed of Western capitalists.

Ooh yeah, and that's not even the half of it. Chiang Kai-Shek's policies led to a lot of Chinese fleeing either to the Far East up north or across the sea to Mexico to look for a better life. Mexico getting mroe immigration than USA was shocking for a while.

Fascism got thoroughly discredited along with most right-wing movements in general by that point. Hell, Mussolini had to eb threatened by both parties to quit his losing war with Ethiopia and the Middle East due to the amounts of lives lost.

Baathists ironically actually became much more reasonable when they saw what fascism did to the Mediterrenan and instead focused on internal development, especially on the sciences.

 

[Tal Shiar]

Ooh yeah, and that's not even the half of it. Chiang Kai-Shek's policies led to a lot of Chinese fleeing either to the Far East up north or across the sea to Mexico to look for a better life. Mexico getting mroe immigration than USA was shocking for a while.

I had visited Mexico city few years later in a school trip. It seems that they still has recognizable minority from China. I heard that most of them left Mexico to the United States after Immigration Acts of 1983 but some of them remained in the city.

Vladivostok on the other hand has a small enclave called Haishenwai. They still holds large number of refugees from the Republic of China organized into semi-state with its own elected Representative Yuan, Courts respected by a local Soviet authorities (it is easier to control Chinese if you have puppet Chinese courts). Chairman of the Central Committee of the Representative Yuan of the United Provinces of the Chinese Democratic Labour People's Republic is probably the longest head of state title among governments-in-exile. Recognized only by the Soviet Union and its allies.

Fascism got thoroughly discredited along with most right-wing movements in general by that point. Hell, Mussolini had to eb threatened by both parties to quit his losing war with Ethiopia and the Middle East due to the amounts of lives lost.

I would rather say that right-wing political views evolved since 1980s. They are still powerful in the world. United States still holds some nostalgia to the Goldwater's conservative or Quentin Roosevelt's Conservative Progressivism Era. In fact, only Sanders' branch of the Democratic Party can be described as a centrist. Nixon/Republican faction of the GOP (they began using Grand Old Party name to distance from the Goldwaterites) is a more center right faction. Rest is still engulfed in the right-wing political sympathies and views.

In Europe, new right mixes conservative model of social policy (emphasis on morality, faith) with a liberal approach (individualism, free market). This is a reaction for a political offensive of Vperedist (Bogdanov's) socialists since 1940s. Socialists advocates relaxation of social norms, LGBT laws, adoption of a feminist policies, government intervention in the economy (some of them favours state capitalism or even outright central planning). New rights wants to limit technological development to ensure retaining human entity while some of the progressive socialists wants to pursue transhumanism or a space colonization.

Truth to be said - right wing politicians really tried to distance themselves from a voodo economics, Goldwaterite madness or a Reagan rollback. Most of them rehabilitated themselves, at least in Europe.

 

[CountDVB]

I had visited Mexico city few years later in a school trip. It seems that they still has recognizable minority from China. I heard that most of them left Mexico to the United States after Immigration Acts of 1983 but some of them remained in the city.

Vladivostok on the other hand has a small enclave called Haishenwai. They still holds large number of refugees from the Republic of China organized into semi-state with its own elected Representative Yuan, Courts respected by a local Soviet authorities (it is easier to control Chinese if you have puppet Chinese courts). Chairman of the Central Committee of the Representative Yuan of the United Provinces of the Chinese Democratic Labour People's Republic is probably the longest head of state title among governments-in-exile. Recognized only by the Soviet Union and its allies.

Yeah, though most of the Chinese ended up settling up in the northern parts which aren't as populated. This became good in the long-run when alot of Chinese-born investors helped develop northern Mexico, especially as solar power became easier to deal with. Also, the Chinese were pretty cordial to the natives.

Granted, the Chinese have embraced Mexican culture and Mexico in term has fondness for them, namely for some similairies (especially with jade.)

I would rather say that right-wing political views evolved since 1980s. They are still powerful in the world. United States still holds some nostalgia to the Goldwater's conservative or Quentin Roosevelt's Conservative Progressivism Era. In fact, only Sanders' branch of the Democratic Party can be described as a centrist. Nixon/Republican faction of the GOP (they began using Grand Old Party name to distance from the Goldwaterites) is a more center right faction. Rest is still engulfed in the right-wing political sympathies and views.

In Europe, new right mixes conservative model of social policy (emphasis on morality, faith) with a liberal approach (individualism, free market). This is a reaction for a political offensive of Vperedist (Bogdanov's) socialists since 1940s. Socialists advocates relaxation of social norms, LGBT laws, adoption of a feminist policies, government intervention in the economy (some of them favours state capitalism or even outright central planning). New rights wants to limit technological development to ensure retaining human entity while some of the progressive socialists wants to pursue transhumanism or a space colonization.

Truth to be said - right wing politicians really tried to distance themselves from a voodo economics, Goldwaterite madness or a Reagan rollback. Most of them rehabilitated themselves, at least in Europe.

The USA is being brought to modern sensabilities by Sanders' branch of the Democrats, especially as the economic failings of the right-wing push more and more people further and further left. It explains the rise of the Green Party and even the Libretarians had to basically rebrand and change themselves to catch on the popualrity (they're more like anarcho syndicalists with Christian socialist leanings last I checked).

South America is about the only place where some sort of third-branch took place, namely because Peronism became Neo-Peronism and reformed a fair bit.

 

[Tal Shiar]

The USA is being brought to modern sensabilities by Sanders' branch of the Democrats, especially as the economic failings of the right-wing push more and more people further and further left. It explains the rise of the Green Party and even the Libretarians had to basically rebrand and change themselves to catch on the popualrity (they're more like anarcho syndicalists with Christian socialist leanings last I checked).

Sanders' branch of Democrats dominated American politics since late 1980s, when Bernard Sanders, a student who rose to prominence during 1970s protests was elected as the President of the United States. He supervised probably the biggest intervention in an economy since Quentin Roosevelt's administration. While highly criticized by conservatives, it helped to heal wounds made by the Reagan Trade War against the Soviet Union and subsequent recession.

Libertarians did not appeared to the nation-wide scale until 2010s. Electoral College two-party system still helds them in their infancy. They and Green Party is more popular on a state level policy when they have at least significant representative in a local assemblies.

South America is about the only place where some sort of third-branch took place, namely because Peronism became Neo-Peronism and reformed a fair bit.

Peronism moved from an authoritarian policy towards fatherly democracy, something like stronger American presidential system. Rise of a local Argentinian industry certainly helped their economy to not be dominated by either of blocs during the second part of the 20th century. Argentianian economy miracle can be traced upon Juan Peron's policies of 1950s and 1960s.

 

[David T]

In my opinion, Bogdanov was largely responsible for the fall of the USSR. His making the long-discredited philosophy of "empririo-criticism" the official philosophy of Soviet Russia did enormous harm to Russian science. "Orthodox Marxist" materialism as expounded by Engels, Plekhanov, and Bogdanov's now all-but-forgotten rival Bolshevik Ulyanov was and is a much sounder philosophy.

 

[Tal Shiar]

In my opinion, Bogdanov was largely responsible for the fall of the USSR. His making the long-discredited philosophy of "empririo-criticism" the official philosophy of Soviet Russia did enormous harm to Russian science. "Orthodox Marxist" materialism as expounded by Engels, Plekhanov, and Bogdanov's now all-but-forgotten rival Bolshevik Ulyanov was and is a much sounder philosophy.

Honestly, I disagree with you opinion, really. In my opinion, harming few dubious scientific theories doesn't not equal to the fall of the USSR. It is true that they sustained some damages due to Bogdanov's policies but they are still a major powerhouse as the second superpower in the world. It seems that they on their way to overtake the United States of America within next few decades, if not sooner.

I know that some of right-wingers in Western Europe preach fall of the Soviet morals (nudity in arts was allowed in 1920s, the first gays were shown kissing on 1949, feminism was heavily promoted since 1918). But they should know that morality is a human-made concept. Soviets broke those artificial barriers to pursue greater freedom.

OOC: Soviet Union is still here, sorry