DBWI: What if the United States had survived into the 21st Century?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Arcvalons, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. terranova210486 Well-Known Member

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    What about North America?
     
  2. Joao97 Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Seems good, though I think the situation in Germany is a little bit ambiguous at the moment, with various posts in this thread contradicting each other. Here you have it as an EF member, and in fact I think some posts point out to that, but OP specified that the country had reunified under the GDR after the end of the cold war.

    Anyway, it seems that most people in this thread were pointing out towards a post-WWII PoD, which means that, even if we decide do retcon the OP, at least East Germany would still have to exist and be Socialist and there's no way that Yugoslavia could end up as a member of the EF.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  3. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    OOC: Ok, so the alt-EU is the PRC of this world, so what about TTL's equivalents to Vietnam, Laos, North Korea and Cuba, the other remaining "capitalist" states in this world, which are basically communist?
     
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  4. theg*ddam*hoi2fan Beware of the Leopard

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    OOC: I think Chile is basically North Korea.

    The Manila Pact would work well as Vietnam - not as wealthy as Europe, but still economically well-off and officially capitalist.
     
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  5. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    OOC: Actually, would Venezuela be under an ineffective capitalist government ITTL?
     
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  6. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: I like that idea, it's pretty entertaining. Also, here's a thought. Anarcho-Capitalism. As we know, without the centralizing "influence" of Stalinism, the New Left and later what I'll call the Internet Moonbat Radical Left went kind of nuts, developing all kinds of crazy sectarian ideologies that are all pretty much incompetent and generally hate one another.

    We know that:
    • Marxism-Leninism/Stalinism
    • Trotskyism (Not that big, but it is a thing)
    • Various forms of Social Democracy
    • Probably, like, syndicalism, but it isn't really that big
    • and Left Communism
    exist in this timeline, and are pretty hateful towards one another, but what if the truly insane sectarian purist side was the far right, with the twist being that Buckley and others managed to largely cut white nationalism and race politics from "mainstream" capitalist conservatism.

    That would lead to two highly fractured rightist internet categories known for sectarian bickering and complete incompetence, all under the delusion that their glorious victory is right around the corner.

    "Sort Of Kind Of Acceptable" Radical Capitalist Beliefs:

    • Anarcho-Capitalism - Huge, produced due to the radicalization of proto-libertarians, Austrian schoolers, mutualist anarchists, and others. Perpetually convinced that the glorious TRUE CAPITALIST REVOLUTION is going to come any day now so they can murder all of these commies, defining "commie" as being anyone who went along with the "fall of capitalism" thing. Jerks it to Pinochet and the CIA, oddly authoritarian for "Anarcho" capitalists, claims that they just appreciate history. Glorify the USA.
    • Anti-Communist Libertarians - A loose conglomeration of minarchists and relatively normal people who believe in a small government, incentives for society's producers and job creators, the right of capitalism to be kept from being infringed, they've realized that they're sidelined due to the communist victory - and they aren't happy about it. They tend to see ancaps as being kind of nuts and bloodthirsty, but they also have a tendency to want to "bring freedom back" - by any means necessary. Ancaps and them tend to form "Liberated Citizen's Militias" and the like, and are considered in this form a low-level terrorist threat.
    • Objectivists - Less bloodthirsty than the other kinds of libertarians, they are still largely arrogant, worshippers of Ayn Rand, they see her story of coming from the oppressive USSR to the gloriously free USA to write as being almost a creation myth. They're a hive of sociopaths and arrogant Reddit libertarians who are driven by rage. Too good for memes.
    • Pan-European Nationalism
    • Some forms of Japanese ultra-nationalism
    These are often people who have been screwed over in one way or another by the fall of capitalism, and sometimes they flee to countries with lower regulation if possible. Anti-Communist Libertarians tend to also be quite anti-socialist, for obvious reasons, and the red scare pervades the triad's shared mythology. As for right-wingers who aren't extremists, they've kind of had to come to terms with it being over in one way or another.

    "Really Not Acceptable" Non-Socialist Beliefs:

    • Neo-Nazism
    • Christian Militias (These are actually surprisingly prevalent in some parts of the former United States, and they often coordinate through the internet.)
    • Italian-style Fascism
    • Integralism
    • Strasserism (This actually had a boost in popularity due to the mix of anti-Semitism, the rise of socialism, and the appeal of fascism. It's worryingly big and Strasserist ideas have infected a lot of the racial right and a bit of the tankiesphere.)
    • Neo-Confederates/the equivalent of neoreactionaries (More emphasis on capitalist/feudalist beliefs and racial "theories" in this sphere)
    • Anti-Left Insurrectionary Anarchists (This one is reasonably big, and tends to get along well with ancaps, anti-communist libertarians, and, to a lesser extent, Objectivists, they tend to have a confusing mix of left and right philosophy and a very violent and destructive outlook)
    • Apocalypse Cults
    • Anti-Socialist Groups (Often a mix of some of the worst kinds of people, they're known for getting together to fume about the victors of the Cold War online - and a few of them have actually taken real lives. Mixed and diverse political opinions)
    • White Capitalist League (The WCL essentially associates communism with the Jews and "Asian" Russian stock, and believes that the Cold War is merely the prelude to a glorious race war. Their beliefs are somewhat Millennialist in nature, and while they are a small niche, the ideas of Judeo-Bolshevism and the coming race war are getting more and more common as the old American way of life continues to slowly die out and the original American state is long-dead. Some of them have definitely killed people before.)
    • Other, crazier forms of Japanese ultranationalism.
    • And probably some others, but these are the ones that come to mind immediately.
    I found online a whole thing called "Political Ideology Catgirls" which focused on the various ideologies of the post-Soviet Left OTL complete with character profiles, so I'm tempted to make some for the ideologies here. IDK.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017 at 9:44 AM
  7. Joao97 Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Catgirls was aweasome. One of the best webcomics I ever read. Too bad it got discontinued. They already have ancap, libertarian, fascist and alt-right cats, btw.
     
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  8. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: I'm aware, but the stereotypes/characters would logically change in this TTL, and honestly there doesn't really seem to be as coherent an "alt-right".
     
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  9. 99 Luftballons Banned

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    OOC:Just like OTL?:p
     
  10. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: I was thinking the worst qualities of ultra-tankies mixed with the already kind of nuts ancaps we see now, with elements of bad Nietzsche interpretation, butchered Rand, and a full embrace of the child-selling and insane elements of the Libertarian OTL fringe. Basically, these are ancaps who have their backs against the wall and believe that everything's going to get undone just around the corner and they'll be able to get to gun down streets full of "communists". Even the Objectivists, which aren't all sociopaths but which have a sizable sociopath population among their cultish Ayn Rand followers and arrogant internet "rationalists", find them to be really weird. It's essentially one giant echo chamber that's been in overdrive ever since the fall of the West.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  11. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    OOC: Maybe Burma or Cambodia could be the Laos analogue, then?
     
  12. bhlee0019 Just An Ordinary CItizen

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    Who is Cuba analogue? Maybe Turkey?
     
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  13. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Do we need exact analogues for every single country on the OTL globe?
     
  14. bhlee0019 Just An Ordinary CItizen

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    OoC: We don't need exact analogue, Actually. we can combine or split as well.
     
  15. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Even that seems sort of uncreative to me.
     
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  16. bhlee0019 Just An Ordinary CItizen

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    Oh.. Sorry..
     
  17. shadowkiller91234567 Well-Known Member

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    OOC: By the way has anyone mentioned South Korea yet in this?
     
  18. bhlee0019 Just An Ordinary CItizen

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  19. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Wait, why is Kim Il-Sung not a problem? Normally I'd be fine with butterflies, but this Super Awesome Commie Wank is getting kind of ridiculous.
     
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  20. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    You can add "populist pan-European nationalism" to that as well considering the EF is the main capitalist power right now. Ditto for "Japanese ultra-nationalism" as the Japanese-led Manila Pact is the other major remaining capitalist power.