DBWI: What if the Greater Reich had implemented genocide?

Instead of assimilation? What ramifications would this entail, especially
for the Reichscommisariats in what used to be the USSR?
 
This is against the rules of this forum. You can't advocate the killing of jews, the mentally retarded, or other "Subhumans" around here.

Please consider yourself warned. We might not like Germany very much for starting a war, but they didn't abandon all shreds of dignity.
 
This is against the rules of this forum. You can't advocate the killing of jews, the mentally retarded, or other "Subhumans" around here.

Please consider yourself warned. We might not like Germany very much for starting a war, but they didn't abandon all shreds of dignity.

Wait are we talking about Slavs here? I think it's much more realistic that the Jewish Homeland of Madagascar is never founded and that genocide of European and Middle Eastern Jews is implemented. (Obviously not advocating here).

As far as Slavs go, you presumably are not talking about those who are considered to have "Aryan" stock, which even today allows Eastern Europeans the chance for significant legal and social advancement? Even if not, destroying the so-called "slave class" of Eastern Europe, not to mention the similar class of Bantu people in Reichscommisarriat Mittelafrika, would devastate the Reich's economy. Certainly, relations with allies would be impaired: and not only the obvious ones like Finland and Ireland.

I think any such policy would well see the overturning of the Reich's position as sovereign world power. Not only would the Americans and perhaps even what is left of the USSR have have more freedom of action against German interests; but even the New Roman Empire, the Co-Prosperity Sphere bloc, and other nations like Spain, Iran, Bharat, and Zudafrika might pursue greater independence of action.
 
Extermination of anyone by deliberate means (the Soviet horror stories of industrialised death camps) is ASB; the Reich didn't have the logistics for doing so to a small group like the Jews, let alone the untold millions of Slavs. For all the rhetoric, no Party bureaucrat seriously thought of anything like that; the aim was always to isolate and resettle the Jews. No one in charge would have approved that massive resource squandering during total war, even if the political will had been there.

I suppose you COULD have massive "murders by ommission" like the Japs did in China, simply starving the undesirables to death; in fact, a number of thousand Jews did die in the polish ghettos from starvation and overcrowding, though most people don't know about that today. Still, it doesn't make any economical sense. How would the war be won without Jewish precision workers? How would we cultivate the East without Slavic labour? Even with automation, you can only go so far without needing manual assistance. (Especially with that shitty law on the inheritance of farms that Darré passed; I can't believe that hasn't been repealed yet, though thankfully we can mostly ignore it over here).

Finally, such a hypothetical genocide would require us to ignore the basically Aryan traits of the vast majority of the Slavic population - blond hair, blue eyes, good health, creativity and intelligence. The old ideologues were pretty thoroughly discredited by what we saw of Russian engineering in the war; free to develop without the oppression of the Judeo-Bolsheviks, they are very close to our racial equals. Hitler never supported the exterminationist ideas anyway, that was just Himmler, Manstein and the other revisionists and apocryphals. National Socialism would never support the removal of such people.
 
My guess is that the German Cultural Revolution that began in 1963 under Reichschancellor Otto Strasser would have never taken place. Just remember that one of the primary political reasons for the "Four Olds" campaign, especially the "Religious Liberation" campaign was to eliminate the "remnants of decadent non-Aryan religious influence". The campign only served to help the revival of the Brownshirts under General Michael Kuhnen in 1979 and delayed any chance of a German-American reapproachment until the 1980s. The campaign only served to perpetuate a cycle of violence, driving the country to the brink of a civil war until the death of Reichschancellor Strasser in 1974....
 

Ak-84

Banned
Oh come on, we know that a conference took place at some place called Wanesse and it really did consider eliminating Jews of Europe. We know that Waffen SS had death sqauds during the conquest of the Soviet Union; the decision to stop was post war; when hard economic and political realitys overtook ideology. Apparently news of the capture of Moscow put a stop to the Wanesse confernce; they had actually agreed on a the principle of extermination; and the logistics were already in place; Aushwitz in Poland; the largest holding camp was already ordered to begin using its garbage incinerator for this new special purpose. If the war had continued; and I say it would have if the German Armys had failed outside Moscow, which was very possible if Soviet reserves in the far east had been free to move their, there commander was a man named Zhukov who actually beat the Japanese in 1939; if the threat to Vladivostok had been seen for what it was; nonsence they would have been outside Moscow that decisive December. The war would have continued and ideology would have prevailed.

PS: i wonder what happened to Zhukov? Last I heard the Japanese captured him when they took their pickings in 1942; almost as mysetious as the dissapearence of Himmler as soon as the war finished.

(OOC: In OTL the initial death camps all had to improvise existing infrastructure, Aushwitz's grabage incinerator was what was adapted initially).
 
This is against the rules of this forum. You can't advocate the killing of jews, the mentally retarded, or other "Subhumans" around here.

Please consider yourself warned. We might not like Germany very much for starting a war, but they didn't abandon all shreds of dignity.


Lol, I thought I was really in trouble!! I had to read that a couple of times!:D
 
It is very frustrating to note that some authors persist in rumor mongering that our elite SS units (Das Reich, Leibstandarte, etc.) did in fact commit acts of genoicde. With the current warm relations between Greater Germany and the US (not so much Britain) you'd think those crack pots wouldn't get published...
 
Alright addressing the topic question. First we hand wave that the Reich possesses the means to carry out a mass genocide, next that the Party leaders are insane(greater Thule Society influence maybe), and that you could find German soldiers willing to carryout these orders without deepthroating their pistols.

The Third Reich would be rightfully demonized and even Germanswould likely have their best interests served by it defeat. I am sorry compatriots but the USA and the USSR provided proof that Statres that engage in willful genocide invariably turn to exploit their own people. Some lines just cannot be crossed without consequences.

Still it would be a stretch that Germany a craddle of modern civilization, the orginator oif the printing press, the Reformation, and many other great achievements could sink to the level of American red necks and Russian barbarians.
 
For one thing as already mentioned, it would needlessly waste manpower and resources that went into important fronts during the war, and it would also alienate several important Jewish scientists that were instrumental to the development of groundbreaking weapons and other non-lethal technology the Reich developed. Also remember that while the National Socialists did have some members that belonged to the Thule society in the beginning, Hitler completely distanced himself and the party from them once he became party leader. "A bunch of backwards lunatics stuck in the middle ages" were his words regarding them I believe.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Then will all the Reich apologists stop. We have documented evidence that options were prepared and orders to begin preparations for implementation given. It was only with the Soviet collapse that it changed. And initially it was since many of the resources earmarked for the "Final Solution" as it was called; would then be needed as German troops went east across Russian to link up with the Japanese in '42.

German carried out quite a few atrocities in the partition of India in '47 and the final settlement on China, the massacre of Sikhs in Gurdaspur (OOC: OTL Pakistani troops did fire at Sikh mobs there), we all agree that atrocities were carried out in the Former Soviet Union after invasion. The Eurasian Unions, dominated by the Reich, with Joachim Piper as its Commission President agrees that extermination was seriouly considered, so why should be think otherwise.
 
Well, with regards to the issue of the German Reich, consider that the near civil war that took place between 1974-1979 during the last "5-Year Stage of the Cultural Revolution" served to bring about the need for the detente that sprung up between the United States under President Eugene McCarthy in 1978. Without the entrenched insurgency of the "Kach" guerillas, Reichschancellor Egon Krentz would have no need to end the "nuclear stalemate" that existed for 30 years.....
 
Then will all the Reich apologists stop. We have documented evidence that options were prepared and orders to begin preparations for implementation given. It was only with the Soviet collapse that it changed. And initially it was since many of the resources earmarked for the "Final Solution" as it was called; would then be needed as German troops went east across Russian to link up with the Japanese in '42.

German carried out quite a few atrocities in the partition of India in '47 and the final settlement on China, the massacre of Sikhs in Gurdaspur (OOC: OTL Pakistani troops did fire at Sikh mobs there), we all agree that atrocities were carried out in the Former Soviet Union after invasion. The Eurasian Unions, dominated by the Reich, with Joachim Piper as its Commission President agrees that extermination was seriouly considered, so why should be think otherwise.

When will YOU stop throwing around Yankee propaganda like it was proven fact? Those documents don't hold up to scrutiny any better than the Gnostic Gospels or the Book of Mormon; Reich historians have investigated them indepth, and unlike Washington they have actual access to primary sources, as opposed to hearsay and blatant lying by expatriates and malcontents. Sure, a few crackpots got together to set up cool plans for the exermination of half the Reich's population. I'm pretty sure I can find some Yankee extremist with similar ideas for his own country. The sheer scale of such a hypothetical undertaking makes it ridiculous to suppose that it could have been carried out. Even if it could, how would you conceal something like that from the government and, even more importantly, the people? No one would stand for it; all right, Himmler and a few SS assholes wouldn't throw it out right away, but even to them it would be fanciful daydreaming, not policy to be implemented, and this ignores that no one of weight in the Führer's administration supported any such ideas in the first place.

As for Piper, your own media admits that he was quoted out of context as far as that statement is concerned. He was talking about Soviet partisans in one region, nothing like this preposterous massive genocide that American Germanophobes like to conjure up whenever relations between our countries get too good so their priests can't preach about Revelations and the coming nuclear Judgment Day.
 

Ak-84

Banned
When will YOU stop throwing around Yankee propaganda like it was proven fact? Those documents don't hold up to scrutiny any better than the Gnostic Gospels or the Book of Mormon; Reich historians have investigated them indepth, and unlike Washington they have actual access to primary sources, as opposed to hearsay and blatant lying by expatriates and malcontents. Sure, a few crackpots got together to set up cool plans for the exermination of half the Reich's population. I'm pretty sure I can find some Yankee extremist with similar ideas for his own country. The sheer scale of such a hypothetical undertaking makes it ridiculous to suppose that it could have been carried out. Even if it could, how would you conceal something like that from the government and, even more importantly, the people? No one would stand for it; all right, Himmler and a few SS assholes wouldn't throw it out right away, but even to them it would be fanciful daydreaming, not policy to be implemented, and this ignores that no one of weight in the Führer's administration supported any such ideas in the first place.

As for Piper, your own media admits that he was quoted out of context as far as that statement is concerned. He was talking about Soviet partisans in one region, nothing like this preposterous massive genocide that American Germanophobes like to conjure up whenever relations between our countries get too good so their priests can't preach about Revelations and the coming nuclear Judgment Day.
Then explain the following 800lb gorillas in the room.

1) Attested actions against locals in the early stages of barbarossa, indeed right up to the Soviet Collapse. can't all be anti-partisan actions

2) The actions in Pakistan during partition of India, I know they were pissed that they got only a sliver of India in their spehere vis-a-via the Japanese and the division was agreed on religious lines, but comeon, Sikhs and Hindus were killed by German troops, we all know that.

3) And of course the operations in China post war, when the settlement came, granted they wanted something worthwhile for themselves, but in we all know about the Tiannaman Sqaure massacre in the German sector of the city.

4) Wansee Conference; it was setup by Himmler with the knowledge of Hitler.

So first three points, actual attempts at extermination (OOC: the term genocide was invented to describe the Holocaust, won't exist here), in other places, why would the Germans care more about Jews, and fourth actual plans made at the top level of government.
 
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