DBWI: What if the American Rebellion succeded

What would the world be like today if that American Rebellion won? Those yanks being left alone in their own little hemisphere seems a frightening aspect.
 
British North America could end up being limited in scope beyond the initial losses of land. If the colonies (well, when they were colonies rather than the Dominion they'd become under Britain) managed to break away, they could very well push the British strictly to dominance only over about the area of Quebec and the western areas from there, with the colonists gaining the territorial claims westward of Appalachia (that's probably a definite, by the way; the Americans getting or at least claiming Appalachia and the west from there). However, there's a very good case to be made that the British could retain the lands just south of the Great Lakes (OOC: Think Ohio and Michigan).

The Americans would have fallen apart anyway. The idea of a working republic at that time as they seemed to propose is, in my opinion, a long shot (look at the Roman Republic. A region of corrupt elite families which lost stability with every stretch of territory it gained), and the colonies would never have been able to get along as the single nation the Rebellion's leaders sought to form. Not to mention that they likely would have been more Confederation than united nation anyway. So I think you'd have see a weak government which would eventually break up after maybe a few decades with each province (New York, Virginia, Delaware, etc.) becoming independent nations in and of themselves.
 

Stephen

Banned
This POD requires some major war somewhere else deviding the might of the British Empire. Cut of from the suply of setlers convicts and poor law deportees in Britain the now independent American colonies will grow alot slower probably never expanding beyond the Misisipi. I doubt the praposed federal government will last long as being a nation founded on the idea of secesion and independence whats to stop the states from declaring independence from eachover due to the slightest disagreement. Undoubtably they will eventually be swolowed up by the still loyal colonies which will be growing at a much faster rate.
 
This POD requires some major war somewhere else deviding the might of the British Empire. Cut of from the suply of setlers convicts and poor law deportees in Britain the now independent American colonies will grow alot slower probably never expanding beyond the Misisipi. I doubt the praposed federal government will last long as being a nation founded on the idea of secesion and independence whats to stop the states from declaring independence from eachover due to the slightest disagreement. Undoubtably they will eventually be swolowed up by the still loyal colonies which will be growing at a much faster rate.

Well, there's nothing that really says they can't reform to a more centralized government when they realized that their current system couldn't work, like what happened with the Boers OTL.

Also, as to not expanding past the Mississippi, don't forget the Louisiana Territory that we took from Napoleon. With independent American Colonies he might just sell it to them for funds and to keep it from falling into British hands as it did in OTL.
 
Well, there's nothing that really says they can't reform to a more centralized government when they realized that their current system couldn't work, like what happened with the Boers OTL.

The Americans would be incapable of working with eachother. They were the citizens of their colony first, "Americans" second. They'll bicker and any union will collapse.

Also, as to not expanding past the Mississippi, don't forget the Louisiana Territory that we took from Napoleon. With independent American Colonies he might just sell it to them for funds and to keep it from falling into British hands as it did in OTL.
*Facepalm* Sure, the Emperor of France selling a key colony to the pissant little backwoods republic a free America would be. What next, independent America becomes as strong as the British Empire? Even if Napoleon would be willing to sell, they'll most likely have no ability to afford it. Think how big of a war debt they'd have combined with the fact I don't even think their plan was to allow the central government taxation powers.
 

Stephen

Banned
And even if for some farcicle reason the French do sell the louisiana teritory how are the Americans going to populate it when they have cut of there supply of settlers from Britain. A certain amount of natural population expantion sure but the number of settlers available would be greatly reduced when compared to OTL. With a less rapidly growing population perhaps they will have much friendlier relations with the natives than OTL perhaps allying with them against the British. I expect that slavery will disapear earlier as the British will still control the seas cutting of the slave trade.
 
Recall, though, that parliament and his highness did not lift the westward travel ban until 1802 which is where the mass westward expansion began. While the Americans were traveling across the Appalachian (albeit illegally) in the OTL, they would have been able to legally travel across there as soon as they were independent, and legal travel would likely have been far easier and far greater in number than the illegal, thus perhaps evening that up there with the influx from the motherland. Said OTL influx is overblown anyway. Most of those settlers were either American or immigrants from all over who would probably have been there anyway.

And were our relations with the native really that bad? I mean, during that period between the ban on transappalachian travel and when it was lifted, the crown made treaties with the natives over land reserved for them and peaceful travel permissions to the colonists. And most of the transgressions that took place were not to do with the British or the soldiers of England stationed there, but with the American settlers fighting the natives (that, of course, does not account for the "Lakota war" of the mid to late 1800's in the even further west, but even that ended up in a massive reservation in the end -OOC: Think the entire state of Montana-). And those natives still retain tribal reservations to this day where they are free to live their way of life. Were there some relocations and transgressions by Britain, yes. But I doubt the Yanks of an American nation would have been any kinder.

Slavery ending is also something I greatly doubt. The Americans had no need to import Negroes as they already had a sizeable population and I don't believe they were importing anymore in any large number anyway. And the Southern colonies saw it as vital to their way of life. Hell, the crown even allowed a special waver for the southern colonies so that as the Empire at large ended slavery in the 1830's, the Southern colonies were to end it in 1842 under the belief they'd instate a gradual manumission so the Negroes would be free by that date. And when that date came, what happened? The Second American Rebellion (1842-1845)!
 
it wouldn't last. The British would have reconquered them, or the French or the Spanish would have taken the colonies. Probably the rebels would have begged the British to let them back and protect them from the French or the Spanish.

Independent countries outside Europe don't work. We have this experiment of the Australian dominion (and that wasn't a real indepence) that only lasted for twenty years. Or the rebellion of Spanish colonies during the First Republic and how they asked for being accepted again in the motherland when the monarchy was reinstated.
 

Stephen

Banned
Hmm I supose the Americans would not have access to the Empires African colonies for repatriation so that would bring up the problem of what to do with the slaves if they were freed. I cant imagine people accepting free blacks walking around white areas wherever they please. Even today its only a few loons who want to get rid of the Empires apartite system and race laws put in place whan slavery ended.
 
it wouldn't last. The British would have reconquered them, or the French or the Spanish would have taken the colonies. Probably the rebels would have begged the British to let them back and protect them from the French or the Spanish.

France's presence in the Americas was negligible by now (Quebec was long gone, and Louisiana only had fur traders) and Spain was either uninterested or too busy with their own affairs. And Britain wouldn't attack without provocation. If America falls, it would be from instability. Not from outside invasion.

Independent countries outside Europe don't work. We have this experiment of the Australian dominion (and that wasn't a real Independence) that only lasted for twenty years. Or the rebellion of Spanish colonies during the First Republic and how they asked for being accepted again in the motherland when the monarchy was reinstated.
The Dominions are essentially independent nations in and of themselves; they just have to answer to their higher nations to varying degrees (British North America/the North American Union is a Dominion with relative independence for goodness sake, as is the French parallel in Indochina). And many non European nations have worked. IE, China, Japan (which is very successful), Alaskya, the Republic of Mexico, Gran Colombia, Brazil, Deseret (granted, the crown did create that nation as a puppet during the Anglo-Mexican war*), etc.. Many of the Spanish colonies did return to the crown, however, many didn't (which I believe I covered).

*OOC: Basically, I conceive of this as being like the Mexican-American was, save it is interrupted by the Second American Rebellion, and with Britain only taking from Mexico a territory equating the northern half of the OTL concession and minus the west of Texas.

Hmm I supose the Americans would not have access to the Empires African colonies for repatriation so that would bring up the problem of what to do with the slaves if they were freed. I cant imagine people accepting free blacks walking around white areas wherever they please. Even today its only a few loons who want to get rid of the Empires apartite system and race laws put in place whan slavery ended.
There are no apartheid laws in the modern day save ever more dwindling parts in South Africa and in certain areas of the southern British North America/the North American Union (which is out of racism in those areas, not the laws as the laws are staunchly supportive of Negro civil rights and equality in the North American Union, which many southerners still won't recognize sadly), so I'm not sure where you are in the Empire or what they are telling you there. You'd likely see the same thing when the slaves were freed in an independent America as with the British. Racist whites attack them on occasion, troops ensure that doesn't happen, and laws are made to protect their freedom and equality and it becomes a social issue. Repatriation back to Africa may be a passing fancy, but I doubt it'd come. The Negroes were as "American" as their former masters, even if said masters couldn't see it. It'd be like returning the Americans back to Liverpool, and having the people there all speak French. It'd be a total culture shock.
 
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Well, i think the world would be a more diverse place. Read the books by Harry Ringo called America Victorious(OTL) about the Americans growing to be a world power and only interfereing to creat world peace and they even reach the moon first
 
The Americans would be incapable of working with eachother. They were the citizens of their colony first, "Americans" second. They'll bicker and any union will collapse.

In OTL yes, and that's one of the reasons they lost. In the ATL we're positing though, they won. That would require them to work together to the point that nationalism could plausibly set in.

*Facepalm* Sure, the Emperor of France selling a key colony to the pissant little backwoods republic a free America would be. What next, independent America becomes as strong as the British Empire? Even if Napoleon would be willing to sell, they'll most likely have no ability to afford it. Think how big of a war debt they'd have combined with the fact I don't even think their plan was to allow the central government taxation powers.

As I said before, the Boers had the same problem but fixed it when they realized that it wouldn't work.

Also, don't forget that the Colonies were extremely lucrative then and remain so to this day. If they can get their shit together then there's enough time between the Rebellion and Napoleon's rise for it to have paid off it's debts. And the Louisiana is only a vital colony to us, after we took it from Napolean, as you say, it only had fur traders at the time.

America becoming as strong as Britain is an absurdity. I never meant to suggest it, America would become at best a Great Power of North America, at worst fall apart due to the slavery issue.
 
In OTL yes, and that's one of the reasons they lost. In the ATL we're positing though, they won. That would require them to work together to the point that nationalism could plausibly set in.
They would work together in the rebellion, and they did work together for that limited goal of independence at that time. But that's as far as you'll get. I'm talking about as a national unit post war.


Also, don't forget that the Colonies were extremely lucrative then and remain so to this day. If they can get their shit together then there's enough time between the Rebellion and Napoleon's rise for it to have paid off it's debts. And the Louisiana is only a vital colony to us, after we took it from Napolean, as you say, it only had fur traders at the time.
I doubt Colonies would not have the ability to pay off their war debt in such short order. While they may have had resources, many of the world markets in the ATL don't seem to me like they'd be privy to accepting them and the British would likely flood the market to destroy an American economy or something like that (if Britain can't conquer, it'll destroy by other means). Likewise, economic recovery would require colonial agreement, and the colonies were generally unable or hard pressed to reach a consensus whenever they had to. And they are no longer colonies, so I ask you not say that. They are a Dominion of the British Empire (colloquially known as British North America and officially known as the North American Union). Plus, we didn't buy Louisiana from Napoleon. We had our troops sweep in, occupy it, and claim it during the Napoleonic wars. So any willingness to sell is only conjecture really.
 
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I'm not saying it's likely, just that it's possible. And I'm a native of New Jersey, I know we're not colonies anymore.


Also, if there had been an American Victory at the battle of Saratoga the French might have gotten involved and helped the rebels.
 
Quote Emperor Norton 1:

"The Americans would have fallen apart anyway."

/Quote

I doubt it. I see the United States of America eventually becoming a good nation. In fact, I bet they would have helped us defeat Nazi Germany, which we could not do on our own.... We wouldn't have those Nazis we hear about every day.
 
Quote Emperor Norton 1:

"The Americans would have fallen apart anyway."

/Quote

I doubt it. I see the United States of America eventually becoming a good nation. In fact, I bet they would have helped us defeat Nazi Germany, which we could not do on our own.... We wouldn't have those Nazis we hear about every day.

A free America would have fallen apart. They proposed a government which would have proven unstable and unable to govern. All there was to be was a Confederation with a weak central government, so they'd have been like separate nations anyway. And that government would prove incapable of governing, mark my words. A strong "United States" is a pipe dream with too many ASB's to count.

And what the hell is a Nazi? (OOC: A) Nazi Germany would never come into existence on account of the massive butterflies you'd have. B) If the colonies were defeated, the Empire would have the power of the United States under its domain and right from the get go whenever it had a war. America under British rule would likely prove superior an asset in war than a United States as an ally)
 
And what the hell is a Nazi? quote]

Southern slang for the national republican germens party [don’t ask me why] there a bunch of secessionist nut jobs from Florida who want a "Germanic American republic" sometimes called Nazi Germany. If memory serves they where founded by a group of first generation Hanoverian immigrants following the two kingdoms immigration act. As for the problems I’m guessing he’s referring to the race riots in the 80s or maybe even the undiplomatic actions of there first elected councilor towards the visiting ambassador of new Spain last month.
 
The Americans would be incapable of working with eachother. They were the citizens of their colony first, "Americans" second. They'll bicker and any union will collapse.
well, that's about half right... the northern colonies could probably all get along, and the southern colonies could probably all get along, but I'm not sure the northern and southern colonies could get along with each other; they were fairly different in culture and lifestyle. I'd bet that even if the two halves cooperated and achieved their independence, they'd break into two separate nations right afterwards.
And even if for some farcicle reason the French do sell the louisiana teritory how are the Americans going to populate it when they have cut of there supply of settlers from Britain.
The Americans would have had a big selling point to draw over immigrants: land, lots of it. Before the war, free (or nearly free) land drew over thousands of people, and not just Britain (I'm pretty sure a bunch of Germans settled somewhere in the northern half). Of course, after the war, the Brits retaliated against the rebels by severely restricting immigration and effectively outlawing immigration from other European nations... but a free America would likely encourage it from anywhere. So, the LA territory would eventually be filled... but it's hard to say where they'd go after that. Maybe the Americans could challenge Spain after that nation's sorry decline in the 19th century, and take some or all of that northern part of Mexico....
 
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