DBWI: What If "Empire of Dying Suns" (BBC-TV) Never Aired?

If my all time favorite TV show never aired then my all time favorite movie, Sins of a Solar Empire, would never air as well :(
 
If my all time favorite TV show never aired then my all time favorite movie, Sins of a Solar Empire, would never air as well :(
According to the DVD commentary Sins of a Solar Empire was almost shot down by Pinewood Studios executives when it was first proposed. It was apparently the success of Season 5 of Empire of Dying Suns that convinced people to consider production....
 
What effect did Empire of Dying Suns (BBC-TV) have on the prequel trilogy of the Star Wars franchise?

None. Seriously, the people who write those articles - have they actually watched the prequels? Or Dying Suns, for that matter? I really don't see the comparisons. Hero, Crisis and Sith form a rather personal story, telling the story of the fall of Anakin, with the Clone Wars mostly in the background; Dying Suns is intensely political, intensely focused on its commentaries on empire.
People read too much into KOTOR - that's not where Lucas is focused, these days. He's much more closely involved with the Star Wars: Scoundrels cartoon.
Incidentally, e of pi, I'd recommend that show - it's fun, in a way that too much televised sci-fi isn't.

No, if there's a film franchise that is influenced by Dying Suns, it's the Trek films. Insurrection, with the climactic battle between Nechayev's fleet and Picard's rag-tag civilian allies, certainly takes inspiration from Suns; Revolution, of course, goes without saying.
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OOC: I see Lucas being too much of his own man to really take influence from a TV series... but that doesn't mean that the prequels couldn't have taken a rather different path.
The alternate take on Star Trek: Insurrection is inspired by Michael Piller's own early treatments of the film in OTL - for a while, he planned to have a group of civilian ships (introduced early in the film) come in at the end to help Picard out.
 
None. Seriously, the people who write those articles - have they actually watched the prequels? Or Dying Suns, for that matter? I really don't see the comparisons. Hero, Crisis and Sith form a rather personal story, telling the story of the fall of Anakin, with the Clone Wars mostly in the background; Dying Suns is intensely political, intensely focused on its commentaries on empire.
People read too much into KOTOR - that's not where Lucas is focused, these days. He's much more closely involved with the Star Wars: Scoundrels cartoon.
Incidentally, e of pi, I'd recommend that show - it's fun, in a way that too much televised sci-fi isn't.

No, if there's a film franchise that is influenced by Dying Suns, it's the Trek films. Insurrection, with the climactic battle between Nechayev's fleet and Picard's rag-tag civilian allies, certainly takes inspiration from Suns; Revolution, of course, goes without saying.
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While I certainly will not disagree with your opinion regarding the prequel trilgy, one must admit that there are enough similarities that make a dismissal of an influence hard to swallow. I would point out:

* Remember the purchase of the slave Anakin Skywalker By Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi Wan Kenobi from the Toydarian, was framed as a Machiavellian act, rather than any condemnation of slavery or issues of morality...
* Second, Senator Palpatine's rise to power, starting with the uncovering of the Trade Federation's covert invasion of Naboo and taking credit for liberating the force-sensitive Gungan, and eventually becoming Emperor, seems like "March on Rome" storyline in season 7.
* Third, Anakin was not some whiny prepubescent child, he was a teenager who was brutally scarred by Toydarian and Tusken enslavers. Although he may have truly loved Princess Amidala, remember that learned after the death of his mother that "might makes right.."

OOC: With the exception of changing Anakin's age when he was introduced to the Jedi Council by tens years, and planting the idea that the Gungan, the Hutt, and the Toydarians are all immune to "the Force", the prequel trilogy remains the same.
 
First point - was it really framed as Machiavellian? On rewatching the scene where Anakin gets purchased, the emphasis seems to be on how strange the Jedi seem to Anakin, on how powerful they are, and on the potential that Anakin himself has. I suppose it's the closest we get to a parallel to Suns; it does look a lot like the origin of Captain Singh.
Second point - you're focusing too much on the stuff Lucas rightfully left in the background. Besides, the rise of Palpatine is pretty clearly based on that of Julius Caesar - the war hero who uses his popularity to subvert democracy. I don't think that two sources riffing on the same historical events means that the first was influenced by the second; further, the twist in the prequels - that Palpatine manipulated events to start the Clone Wars in the first place, and defeats the assassins [the Jedi] sent against him - isn't the one in 'March on Rome' - that Collingwood actually intended to preserve and reform the Senate, and that his assassins were the ones to champion an end to democracy.
Third point - What's this about Anakin being a child? Why would he have been? Luke wasn't a prepubescent when A New Hope begins, and neither is Anakin when Destiny's Hero begins. Anakin's fall seems to be pretty closely linked to Luke's development as a Jedi. Both have their family die, both leave behind their old lives, both are thrown into a war. Palpatine comes off as a clear foil for Yoda. It's pretty clear where Lucas gets his influence for Anakin's fall - it's in Luke's avoiding his own fall.

I won't deny that the prequels are dark... but I think it's a darkness that's in keeping with the tone of the Star Wars universe, not one drawing on Dying Suns. Look at what Lucas has done since then - in particular at Scoundrels - he's doing what he always has, riffing on Westerns and Samurai films while showing off an exotic, pulpy universe. The Star Wars galaxy is not corrupt at its core, its heroes are not inherently doomed to failure.

OOC: And here I was going to suggest a radically different series - one where Anakin starts out a Jedi in the first film, for instance, while the Jedi themselves are entirely different from how they were portrayed in the OTL prequels.
I still think you'd need more changes to the prequels for them to be legitimately compared to the Godfather films. The focus would have to be tightly on Anakin's character, in my opinion; the political scenes that came in the prequels in OTL could and should have been winnowed down significantly. It's probably also easier to have the Clone Wars be happening in the background, right from the start; the clones could be on either side of the war (or both, perhaps). Finally, I'd suggest that Palpatine is a Senator, but also a military leader, and that we see him influencing Anakin directly as early as the second film, if not also in the first.

I'd like to see someone run with my thoughts on the alternate Trek films.
 
First point - was it really framed as Machiavellian? On rewatching the scene where Anakin gets purchased, the emphasis seems to be on how strange the Jedi seem to Anakin, on how powerful they are, and on the potential that Anakin himself has. I suppose it's the closest we get to a parallel to Suns; it does look a lot like the origin of Captain Singh.
Second point - you're focusing too much on the stuff Lucas rightfully left in the background. Besides, the rise of Palpatine is pretty clearly based on that of Julius Caesar - the war hero who uses his popularity to subvert democracy. I don't think that two sources riffing on the same historical events means that the first was influenced by the second; further, the twist in the prequels - that Palpatine manipulated events to start the Clone Wars in the first place, and defeats the assassins [the Jedi] sent against him - isn't the one in 'March on Rome' - that Collingwood actually intended to preserve and reform the Senate, and that his assassins were the ones to champion an end to democracy.
Third point - What's this about Anakin being a child? Why would he have been? Luke wasn't a prepubescent when A New Hope begins, and neither is Anakin when Destiny's Hero begins. Anakin's fall seems to be pretty closely linked to Luke's development as a Jedi. Both have their family die, both leave behind their old lives, both are thrown into a war. Palpatine comes off as a clear foil for Yoda. It's pretty clear where Lucas gets his influence for Anakin's fall - it's in Luke's avoiding his own fall.

I won't deny that the prequels are dark... but I think it's a darkness that's in keeping with the tone of the Star Wars universe, not one drawing on Dying Suns. Look at what Lucas has done since then - in particular at Scoundrels - he's doing what he always has, riffing on Westerns and Samurai films while showing off an exotic, pulpy universe. The Star Wars galaxy is not corrupt at its core, its heroes are not inherently doomed to failure.

OOC: And here I was going to suggest a radically different series - one where Anakin starts out a Jedi in the first film, for instance, while the Jedi themselves are entirely different from how they were portrayed in the OTL prequels.
I still think you'd need more changes to the prequels for them to be legitimately compared to the Godfather films. The focus would have to be tightly on Anakin's character, in my opinion; the political scenes that came in the prequels in OTL could and should have been winnowed down significantly. It's probably also easier to have the Clone Wars be happening in the background, right from the start; the clones could be on either side of the war (or both, perhaps). Finally, I'd suggest that Palpatine is a Senator, but also a military leader, and that we see him influencing Anakin directly as early as the second film, if not also in the first.

I'd like to see someone run with my thoughts on the alternate Trek films.
The point I am trying to make is that Anakin never saw the Jedi as "protectors of order" but rather just another set of masters willing to crack the whip if they suspected that he had a true inkling of his plans. It is part of the reason that Anakin trusts Palpatine so readily. Anakin sees Palpatine as someone who only trusts people based on their contribution in efforts and duty, as a former slave, these are things that he can relate and understand....

As for the issue of the Jedi Council, consider the scenes in Crisis and Sith wherein the Council members readily speak of the need to "reign in the Senate, for the good of the Republic...". When you also add Master Mace Windu's speech, about "the need for absolutes", the Jedi Council is a benign theocracy, with a propensity to act like the clerics of Iran or the Taliban in Afghanistan...

In regards to the issue of Star Trek, the seeds were actually planted in the first season episode "Conspiracy". When Dexter Remmick launched the signal into the Delta Quadrant, the invasion of the Federation was only a matter of time. The elements of the "Dominion" were brought up again in Star Trek: Bajor, with the episodes pointing to a cabal building within Starfleet.
 
the Jedi Council is a benign theocracy, with a propensity to act like the clerics of Iran or the Taliban in Afghanistan...


Speaking of the Taliban.

I've heard that the real reason that the unofficial season 9 was dropped and that several writers quit was because of the controversy caused by the pro Taliban al Qaeda slant.

The plot involved a flawed corrupt society invading weak systems on the behalf of corporations.

At several points suicide bombers were positively portrayed. Naturally the BBC made the writers rewrite it several times and even then every American channel refused to air it. In the end they dropped it and moved on to other project.

Personally I think the idiot who wrote the 911 parallel should have been fired I mean the details were changed but if you saw the draft one of the pilots face’s was meant to and I quote “light up with a glow of peace and victory”.

The BCC never released the name of the particular writer who wrote that ignorant bull shit, any ideas?

I think that Empire for the first time overplayed it's hand.
 
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Speaking of the Taliban.

I've heard that the real reason that the latest season was so jarring and that several writers quit was because of the controversy caused by the pro Taliban al Qaeda slant.

The plot involved a flawed corrupt society invading weak systems on the behalf of corporations.

At several points suicide bombers were positively portrayed. Naturally the BBC made the writers rewrite it several times and even then every American channel refused to air it. In the end they dropped it and made a whole new storyline.

Personally I think the idiot who wrote the 911 parallel should have been fired I mean the details were changed but if you saw the draft one of the pilots face’s was meant to and I quote “light up with a glow of peace and victory”.

The BCC never released the name of the particular writer who wrote that ignorant bull shit, any ideas?

I think that Empire for the first time overplayed it's hand.

OOC: The problem is that the British series Empire of Dying Suns ended in 1994. If they were attempting to copy a regime, they could have chosen Iraq, Iran, Serbia, North Korea, et al. The Taliban didn't come to power until 1999.
 
Am I alone in hating the "grimdark" feel that every major scifi show seems it needs to ape these days because of EoDS? Especially since a good part of the original "Empire" feel was rooted in the mid-80s backlash to Thatcher and coming to terms with the final decline of the British empire in (for instance) the Falkans. But no, they thought Americans wouldn't get that, so when it started catching on in the US they started doing away with that in favor of more just generic grimdark...

I have to agree with you. One of the reasons I love Mass Effect so much is that the fact there are genuinely well meaning people (Shepard*, Liara, Ashley Tali, Garrus, Wrex e.t.c...) who can also make a difference, makes the apperance of total monsters like Saren, the Illusive Man and Balak**+ so shocking.

On the topic of the EoDS, does anyone know if that EoDS RTS is still on or has it gone into development hell (again). Admittedly EoDS isn't the easiest IP to develop a good game for (kind of like Doctor Who) that would sell in the US, but its been four years since they showed the thing at E3....

+Does anyone else feel their blood boiling when that guy turns up on screen, often more powerful and more successful than before? :mad: He tried to destroy Terra Nova, he was possibly responsible for destroying Mindoir*** twice and is now working with the Reapers. Who would have thought that a merely nasty piece of work who appeared in just two episodes (the Bring Down the Sky two-parter) in season 1 would turn out to be such a bloody monster? :(

teg

OOC:

*Shepard ITTL is a female colonist/Sole Survivor called Cara.

**Balak appears in the equivalent of Mass Effect 2 as a minor villain as well Season 1. In Season 3 (sometimes called 2.5), which is set after the Collector Base raid and until Arrival, he becomes the de facto Big Bad with it becoming increasingly clear that he has been indoctrinated.

***At the end of Season 3 of Mass Effect, Shepard learns that Mindoir has been razed again, this time by Batarians who have been indoctrinated. It is strongly implied that Balak was in command.
 
I changed my earlier post.

the BBC agianst the writers wishs wanted a reboot in 2006 and they figured that Iraq and Afganistan would mean more to the audience than 18th centuary and ealy 20th centuary Colonial history.

They let the new writers go totally overboard on the reboot and the series never got off the ground in the USA and it was believed that the origional fans in the UK would feel that the concept was betrayed.

The project was dropped in late 2007- early 2008.
 
The point I am trying to make is that Anakin never saw the Jedi as "protectors of order" but rather just another set of masters willing to crack the whip if they suspected that he had a true inkling of his plans. It is part of the reason that Anakin trusts Palpatine so readily. Anakin sees Palpatine as someone who only trusts people based on their contribution in efforts and duty, as a former slave, these are things that he can relate and understand....

As for the issue of the Jedi Council, consider the scenes in Crisis and Sith wherein the Council members readily speak of the need to "reign in the Senate, for the good of the Republic...". When you also add Master Mace Windu's speech, about "the need for absolutes", the Jedi Council is a benign theocracy, with a propensity to act like the clerics of Iran or the Taliban in Afghanistan...

I got the sense that Anakin initially felt joy at being freed, but realized that the Jedi hadn't truly freed him, simply given him a new set of fetters. He had trusted Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to free him and save his family, and they didn't. They had their own reasons, with the Clone Wars and all, but they still failed Anakin.
**
Of course, this was the same Senate that was filled with Palpatine's cronies, that would soon vote him Emperor. Mace was trying to play Cassius, with Anakin as his Brutus. Too bad for him it didn't turn out that way.
***
Speaking of Iran, was any of Suns' many battles inspired by the Iran-Iraq War? I haven't watched much of the series (too dark for my tastes) but I am curious.
 

Glen

Moderator
I changed my earlier post.

the BBC agianst the writers wishs wanted a reboot in 2006 and they figured that Iraq and Afganistan would mean more to the audience than 18th centuary and ealy 20th centuary Colonial history.

They let the new writers go totally overboard on the reboot and the series never got off the ground in the USA and it was believed that the origional fans in the UK would feel that the concept was betrayed.

The project was dropped in late 2007- early 2008.

Yeah who thought rebooting such a classic was a good idea???
 
I have to agree with you. One of the reasons I love Mass Effect so much is that the fact there are genuinely well meaning people (Shepard*, Liara, Ashley Tali, Garrus, Wrex e.t.c...) who can also make a difference, makes the apperance of total monsters like Saren, the Illusive Man and Balak**+ so shocking.

+Does anyone else feel their blood boiling when that guy turns up on screen, often more powerful and more successful than before? :mad: He tried to destroy Terra Nova, he was possibly responsible for destroying Mindoir*** twice and is now working with the Reapers. Who would have thought that a merely nasty piece of work who appeared in just two episodes (the Bring Down the Sky two-parter) in season 1 would turn out to be such a bloody monster? :(

teg

In the season five opener (S5 E1: Arrival: Part Two)) the batarians got conquered offscreen. It's mentioned as having happened about two days before the Reapers come pouring out of the Sol relay. Earth is invaded and overrun before the first commercial break. And Balak, while just evil, comes across as a tragic figure now that his motivations finally have been revealed (S5 E7: The Last Warlord) where Balak was shown to be one of the few batarian leaders not indoctrinated. Turns out the batarians found a derelict Reaper about 80-some years previously, got careless, and wound up with an indoctrinated leadership. Balak's attacks were an attempt at getting humanity to go to war and wipe out the Hegemony's indoctrinated leaders. Unfortunately for him, the clock ran out. The fact that he wasn't a Reaper puppet, but instead just really desperate, was a pleasant twist. (One of the few, given how dark season five has been...) He's still a monster, but one that can be reasoned with.

Friday's episode (S5 E13 A House on the Homeworld: Part Two) showed that Shepard, when he has his back to the wall, can be an absolute bastard. Tali was one of the characters introduced in the pilot epsiode (S1 E1 The Beacon), and a fan favourite.:( While I didn't think that he'd be able to get the quarians out of that pickle, I wasn't expecting him to side with the geth!:eek: I still can't believe that they (the producers) had the balls to do that... At least they finally offed a Reaper. Now I'm waiting to see how much hate mail they get for that.

On the topic of the EoDS, does anyone know if that EoDS RTS is still on or has it gone into development hell (again). Admittedly EoDS isn't the easiest IP to develop a good game for (kind of like Doctor Who) that would sell in the US, but its been four years since they showed the thing at E3....
It's probably as dead as the Stargate MMO that hasn't been heard from since 2006. With a property like EoDs, the best bet would be to do a "prequel" RPG like Black Isle did for Dune. (The Jihad trilogy.) Set it in 'the early days' of the Empire, say the Heresy or the Crusade, where things are sort of ill-defined, and then tell a story where any of the outcomes could fit the established canon. Black Isle could do it, but they are in the middle of developing the third (and concluding) game in their popular Jihad trilogy (The Last Full Measure) and not to mention that EA owns the license. (And they don't own Black Isle...) Bioware could also do it, but they only do fantasy. Sure, Dragon Age and Jade Empire show how they are, but sci-fi, even that with fantasy elements like EoDS, is not their cup of tea. (Not to mention that EA doesn't own them either. Activison got them first.)

OOC:

*Shepard ITTL is a female colonist/Sole Survivor called Cara.

**Balak appears in the equivalent of Mass Effect 2 as a minor villain as well Season 1. In Season 3 (sometimes called 2.5), which is set after the Collector Base raid and until Arrival, he becomes the de facto Big Bad with it becoming increasingly clear that he has been indoctrinated.

***At the end of Season 3 of Mass Effect, Shepard learns that Mindoir has been razed again, this time by Batarians who have been indoctrinated. It is strongly implied that Balak was in command.
OOC: It was already established that Shepard was male, though him being a colonist makes for an "interesting" background.

I stretched things out a bit. The original game plus "Bring Down the Sky" took two years, with the Bring Down the Sky two-parter being the bridge between the two seasons. Seasons 3 and 4 are the second game, with (a very different) Lair of the Shadow Broker fitting into season four as a TV-movie, while Horizon: Part One, sat at the end of season 3 and Arrival: Part One (OTL the Arrival DLC) concluded season 4. Arrival: Part Two is the prologue of the third game, taking place on Earth and Mars.

Also, even though I've never actually been able to do it, I was a bastard and killed off Tali and the quarians. That scene is actually very well done, and just watching it is enough to leave you feeling like a douchenozzle. Especially what with that paragon interrupt...;)
 
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Indeed, Shep can be a right bastard. Hey guys do you remember Vigil? I always found the character to be tragic, I mean the theme song for the first two seasons is actually his leitmotif. Poor synthetic guy... made me cry.

Anyways, I wonder if The Elders Scrolls multimedia empire would be like it is today without that show? I mean it all started from one simple game, and it spread from there.

Now you have a show set during Tiber Septim's rise to power, a feature length movie involving the rise to power of the Thalmor, the new game set in Skyrim, mutliple books, anime, and many other things that I can't list on off the top of my head. The death of Ocato also made me cry, the guy was there for pratically the whole run of the main part of the series (if you can call something that is spread out among books, games, a tv show, a feature length movie, a few animated movies a series).

ooc: we can't make every game into a show, so I am trying to do something creative.
 
Yeah who thought rebooting such a classic was a good idea???

The same people who thought that a redo of The A-Team would be an instant hit? At least they never actually got as far as putting it on TV...

For every Battlestar Galactica there are ten turkeys like that. Be glad that only eight of those ten ever go beyond the concept stage...
 
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