Also. I'm still wondering. As someone who is a dual citizen of the USA and CSA how many states would each nation have if the CSA won this alternate civil war and also if the Union won? In OTL the US currently has 50 states, and the CSA has 35 states.

OOC: In This TL the US got to 50 states because the 'blues' winning the Canadian civil war and joining the US along with the US recognizing state movements (ex: Superior.) The CSA got to 35 due to it dividing the Philippines into 6 states, the states it got from Mexico, but also France, Britain, and the Netherlands ,at the end of the cold war (examples being the three Guyanas.)
 
Last edited:
Got ya.I only see the us being partitioned if it joined on the side of the losers (being isolationist that seems unlikely) I could see a communist revolution occurring with many states trying to secede. If the Great Depression happens in this TL then the communists are sure to take over. Without a leader who could lead the USA out of a depression (better to keep them out of it), and keep it from joining the losing side of World War 2 (better to have the US join the winning side) it probably would be partitioned. You would probably have to have a president who had enough influence and was president long enough (More than 2 terms. say 3-4) to actually prevent a partition of the US. Is this possible? If the US gave up on the Monroe treaty in this TL like OTL then Syndicalist Mecixo, facist chile and Brazil would still exist because the British would still have backed the Mexican Revolution and the Neo-Roman empire would have still participated in the civil wars of Brazil and chile. The Japanese empire was a prime target for the UBPR, the People's Republic of France, the German Democratic Republic and Syndicalist Mexico to prop up the revolutionaries because it only stabilized in 1950. This was mainly due to the Pacific war actually starting up and the Emperor using it to unify Japan. Without the Pacific War occurring I believe the UBPR and the People's French Republic (PFR) Would have propped up the communist because the Japanese Empire was a threat to the puppet states they had in Asia (Vietnam, South China, the Raj Republic, etc.) Another result of no Pacific War would be Japan wouldn't have been divided for 41 years (1955-1996) between the capitalist north and communist south. The Confederates would probably not own Hong Kong (only Confederate State in Asia) thus keeping the Confederates out of Chinese politics. We've been talking about the middle part of the 20th century so far, but what about the beginning? Is it possible that with a union victory the UBPR would still be the British Empire like in Harry Turtledove's book The Colder War? If so, what scenario would have to occur to allow the King to win in the British Civil war or even prevent it?
There would have to be a miracle for the USA to survive as a democracy. It's possible, but definitely not likely. I doubt the British Empire would survive, too. The British class system and oppression of colonies practically made the revolution inevitable.
 
There would have to be a miracle for the USA to survive as a democracy. It's possible, but definitely not likely. I doubt the British Empire would survive, too. The British class system and oppression of colonies practically made the revolution inevitable.
Do any cannidates come to mind who may have saved the USA in this TL? While the British class system was oppressive, the same could be said for other countries. Heck, Germany almost became communist in the early 20's but officially became Nazi in the early 30's. Some people have suggested the Axis could have been lead by Germany if it were more unified rather than the Neo Roman Empire (perhaps it could have also been divided instead, but between east and west) maybe they could have also not been responsible for starting WW2 in TTL. It could be the Neo Romans! Would the Union have even allied with Russia in this TL if they did survive? Russia (and Prussia) did slightly help the north in the civil war in OTL, maybe the union winning would cause relations between the three nations to become friendlier over time and the three would work together in world war 1. Maybe there would be no world war 2 in this TL if they won. Or it would be the commies vs the democracies. In this case who would win? In either of these scenarios there would be no Cold War and no pacific war. Is this scenario possible with a USA that wins the civil war?
 
Do any cannidates come to mind who may have saved the USA in this TL? While the British class system was oppressive, the same could be said for other countries. Heck, Germany almost became communist in the early 20's but officially became Nazi in the early 30's. Some people have suggested the Axis could have been lead by Germany if it were more unified rather than the Neo Roman Empire (perhaps it could have also been divided instead, but between east and west) maybe they could have also not been responsible for starting WW2 in TTL. It could be the Neo Romans! Would the Union have even allied with Russia in this TL if they did survive? Russia (and Prussia) did slightly help the north in the civil war in OTL, maybe the union winning would cause relations between the three nations to become friendlier over time and the three would work together in world war 1. Maybe there would be no world war 2 in this TL if they won. Or it would be the commies vs the democracies. In this case who would win? In either of these scenarios there would be no Cold War and no pacific war. Is this scenario possible with a USA that wins the civil war?
Nobody really comes to mind, the leader of the USA would have to do the absolutely perfect thing at every moment or else everything would fall apart. In other words, this president would have to essentially be flawless. If by some miracle the Union does survive then allying with Russia actually seems quite likely. I can see the Yankees being opposed to communism and forming an alliance with the Russians. I think your second scenario would happen and the democracies and fascists would gang up on the commies. The democratic-fascist alliance would probably win which I think would result with a Cold War between the fascists and democracies.
 
Nobody really comes to mind, the leader of the USA would have to do the absolutely perfect thing at every moment or else everything would fall apart. In other words, this president would have to essentially be flawless. If by some miracle the Union does survive then allying with Russia actually seems quite likely. I can see the Yankees being opposed to communism and forming an alliance with the Russians. I think your second scenario would happen and the democracies and fascists would gang up on the commies. The democratic-fascist alliance would probably win which I think would result with a Cold War between the fascists and democracies.
(This isn't one specific person) but maybe if Calvin Coolidge ran (and won) in 1928 he could manage to make the Great Depression less tragic and prevent the mess FDR created after Black Tuesday. Then in 1932 Herbert Hoover could become president and save the country from a communist revolutiolution by bringing it out if the depression. Then in 1940 Churchill could be electected (if his family was still threatened ITTL by British communists he would still be born in New York.) I believe the Union would have won the war ITTL because they would have all the great southern generals on their side (President Eisenhower, President MacArthur, Patton, etc) What nations would be capitalist and facist in this Cold War? Could the Neo Roman Empire have gotten the inner German circle to get rid of hitler? Mussolini became displeased with hitler at the end of the war because of what he was doing to the Jews and the Slavs (he wanted to keep the allies of Ukraine, Poland, and Bulgaria) or would there be a mega holocaut against Jews in TTL during the Cold War? (Since there would be no Slavs in Germany) Would britian be divided or taken over by some power? If so, what would britian be during the Cold War? Democratic or facist? (I personally think democratic but I am open to an argument for it being fascist)
 
(This isn't one specific person) but maybe if Calvin Coolidge ran (and won) in 1928 he could manage to make the Great Depression less tragic and prevent the mess FDR created after Black Tuesday. Then in 1932 Herbert Hoover could become president and save the country from a communist revolutiolution by bringing it out if the depression. Then in 1940 Churchill could be electected (if his family was still threatened ITTL by British communists he would still be born in New York.) I believe the Union would have won the war ITTL because they would have all the great southern generals on their side (President Eisenhower, President MacArthur, Patton, etc) What nations would be capitalist and facist in this Cold War? Could the Neo Roman Empire have gotten the inner German circle to get rid of hitler? Mussolini became displeased with hitler at the end of the war because of what he was doing to the Jews and the Slavs (he wanted to keep the allies of Ukraine, Poland, and Bulgaria) or would there be a mega holocaut against Jews in TTL during the Cold War? (Since there would be no Slavs in Germany) Would britian be divided or taken over by some power? If so, what would britian be during the Cold War? Democratic or facist? (I personally think democratic but I am open to an argument for it being fascist)
President Coolidge and no FDR is the best bet for the USA, but then again, this is so far from the POD that they would probably have completely different personalities from OTL. I think France would be fascist and the former UBPR would be partitioned into a bunch of democratic nations, however, I can see part of London being put under fascist military occupation like the partition of Rome in OTL. The Neo Romans would probably also take Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, and Sudan. This combined with their conquest of the Ottoman Empire and the Arabian Peninsula would mean that Rome would have complete dominance over oil. I can't say what would happen to Hitler. He would either be the man that would start WWIII or Mussolini would keep a hold of him and prevent Germany from going off and doing something stupid. When Hitler dies he would be replaced with someone less radical although by then I fear that numerous genocides would occur.
 
President Coolidge and no FDR is the best bet for the USA, but then again, this is so far from the POD that they would probably have completely different personalities from OTL. I think France would be fascist and the former UBPR would be partitioned into a bunch of democratic nations, however, I can see part of London being put under fascist military occupation like the partition of Rome in OTL. The Neo Romans would probably also take Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, and Sudan. This combined with their conquest of the Ottoman Empire and the Arabian Peninsula would mean that Rome would have complete dominance over oil. I can't say what would happen to Hitler. He would either be the man that would start WWIII or Mussolini would keep a hold of him and prevent Germany from going off and doing something stupid. When Hitler dies he would be replaced with someone less radical although by then I fear that numerous genocides would occur.
I agree, they would probably have slightly different policies than OTL but I don't see FDR becoming a Whig and Coolidge joining the Labor party. FDR would stay Labor and Coolidge would stay a Whig. How would the divisions in the Middle East look like? Would the Middle East be unified? Or would it still be divided between the powers of the cold war. IOTL there were the Russian puppet states: Judea, Lebanon, along with North Egypt (Amazing how South Egypt went from being communist to an Islamic Sultanate). The former British puppet states (now capitalist democracies): Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, and Kurdistan. Finally the only non aligned Nation during the cold war was the Kingdom of Arabia. How would the Vatican look in this scenario? IOTL it bordered North and South Rome with the entrance being on South Rome. OTL the vatican became very Anti communist since many Catholics were in Communist Countries, and the Communist Atheist North Italy was right at it's doorstep. In TTL would it be pro fascist or stay completely neutral due to all of Rome being fascist? What about the talks between the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church have started earlier or later? IOTL they began communicating in 1949. Would relations between the two churches be warmer or colder? What would the architecture look like with the fascists being in the cold war? IOTL the communist west built ugly communist style apartment buildings.

OOC: South Egypt in a nutshell is an Islamic North Korea. Ugly Communist Style Apartment Buildings=Soviet style apartment buildings.
 
I agree, they would probably have slightly different policies than OTL but I don't see FDR becoming a Whig and Coolidge joining the Labor party. FDR would stay Labor and Coolidge would stay a Whig. How would the divisions in the Middle East look like? Would the Middle East be unified? Or would it still be divided between the powers of the cold war. IOTL there were the Russian puppet states: Judea, Lebanon, along with North Egypt (Amazing how South Egypt went from being communist to an Islamic Sultanate). The former British puppet states (now capitalist democracies): Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, and Kurdistan. Finally the only non aligned Nation during the cold war was the Kingdom of Arabia. How would the Vatican look in this scenario? IOTL it bordered North and South Rome with the entrance being on South Rome. OTL the vatican became very Anti communist since many Catholics were in Communist Countries, and the Communist Atheist North Italy was right at it's doorstep. In TTL would it be pro fascist or stay completely neutral due to all of Rome being fascist? What about the talks between the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church have started earlier or later? IOTL they began communicating in 1949. Would relations between the two churches be warmer or colder? What would the architecture look like with the fascists being in the cold war? IOTL the communist west built ugly communist style apartment buildings.

OOC: South Egypt in a nutshell is an Islamic North Korea. Ugly Communist Style Apartment Buildings=Soviet style apartment buildings.
Well, Rome controlled the Middle East and Mussolini hated the Muslims so the region would probably be mostly depopulated with a few labour camps and fossil fuel reserves and there would be a few cities of Italian settlers here and there. If Rome collapses for some reason in this timeline the Middle East could become a lot of things, but I see the Roman colonies declaring their independence and competing with one another being a likely scenario. These nations would probably resemble Segregation-Era CSA where the nation would be led by the Italian elite while the Arabs would become a secondary class forced to live in terrible standards of living separate from the Italians. As for Vatican I find it quite simple: it wouldn't exist and the Pope would be a puppet of Mussolini just like he was in OTL. I'm not an expert on architecture, however, I think the Romans would mimick Ancient Rome like they planned to do I. OTL. As for Germany they had a few ambitious plans but didn't have the capability to carry them out. German architecture would probably stay the same as OTL, just replace the communist symbols of OTL with swastikas. Austria could maybe resemble Germany and I don't know enough about the rest.
 
Well, Rome controlled the Middle East and Mussolini hated the Muslims so the region would probably be mostly depopulated with a few labour camps and fossil fuel reserves and there would be a few cities of Italian settlers here and there. If Rome collapses for some reason in this timeline the Middle East could become a lot of things, but I see the Roman colonies declaring their independence and competing with one another being a likely scenario. These nations would probably resemble Segregation-Era CSA where the nation would be led by the Italian elite while the Arabs would become a secondary class forced to live in terrible standards of living separate from the Italians. As for Vatican I find it quite simple: it wouldn't exist and the Pope would be a puppet of Mussolini just like he was in OTL. I'm not an expert on architecture, however, I think the Romans would mimick Ancient Rome like they planned to do I. OTL. As for Germany they had a few ambitious plans but didn't have the capability to carry them out. German architecture would probably stay the same as OTL, just replace the communist symbols of OTL with swastikas. Austria could maybe resemble Germany and I don't know enough about the rest.
Well Austria is a unique state of Germany and probably would have stick to the stereotypical German architecture like how it and Bavaria did during the communist days of Germany. In this TL would it be possible for the fascists nations in South America to survive? Also, what would happen to the syndicalists in Mexico? In this TL how would technology look like with the facists being in power?
 
Well Austria is a unique state of Germany and probably would have stick to the stereotypical German architecture like how it and Bavaria did during the communist days of Germany. In this TL would it be possible for the fascists nations in South America to survive? Also, what would happen to the syndicalists in Mexico? In this TL how would technology look like with the facists being in power?
As long as the Latin American radicals never provoke the USA they will survive. Technology will probably be the same, however, I doubt the fascists would permit their citizens to have devices that encourage free speech and long distance communication like computers and phones.
 
As long as the Latin American radicals never provoke the USA they will survive. Technology will probably be the same, however, I doubt the fascists would permit their citizens to have devices that encourage free speech and long distance communication like computers and phones.
Weren't the fascists obsessed with space and missile technology and stuff like that? Could they afford to send a man into space, or would WW2 and their mistreatment of minorities have bankrupt them? I agree that they would censor free speech but I think it would be more of how the communist nations of OTL monitored phone calls, the early internet, and even letters. Heck, they monitored almost anything that was being transported! How would a divided London look like? Would there be many people trying to cross from the fascist half of london to the democratic half? Could this lead to a london wall like there was in Rome? What would be the fate of Canada in this scenario? Would it stay independent or eventually join the Union like OTL? In a TL without the CSA winning the civil war would the USA accept Russia's proposal to buy Alaska or reject the offer like OTL (Russia then asked the CSA to purchase it a year later which the CSA gleefully accepted.) In a TL where the USA won and there was a cold war between the Fascists and Democracies which nations would be the permanent member nations of the league of nations? How would the League of Nations look in this TL?
 
Weren't the fascists obsessed with space and missile technology and stuff like that? Could they afford to send a man into space, or would WW2 and their mistreatment of minorities have bankrupt them? I agree that they would censor free speech but I think it would be more of how the communist nations of OTL monitored phone calls, the early internet, and even letters. Heck, they monitored almost anything that was being transported! How would a divided London look like? Would there be many people trying to cross from the fascist half of london to the democratic half? Could this lead to a london wall like there was in Rome? What would be the fate of Canada in this scenario? Would it stay independent or eventually join the Union like OTL? In a TL without the CSA winning the civil war would the USA accept Russia's proposal to buy Alaska or reject the offer like OTL (Russia then asked the CSA to purchase it a year later which the CSA gleefully accepted.) In a TL where the USA won and there was a cold war between the Fascists and Democracies which nations would be the permanent member nations of the league of nations? How would the League of Nations look in this TL?
I forgot about the Roman space program! :p I'm sure they could go to space if they wanted to and a Roman lunar colony is definitely a cool idea! A divided London would be similar to OTL Rome, however, the fascist half would be completely isolated from the rest of the fascist world thanks to distance. The nearest fascist nation would probably be France. A London Wall is pretty likely, too. Canada would probably be taken by the USA from the UBPR in ATL WWII so if anything more of Canada would join the Yanks, it just wouldn't be stable because Canada wouldn't willingly join like in OTL. I can see Alaska being purchased, especially after Britain goes communist. The LoN would probably consist of Russia, the CSA, and Rome, which would replace the UBPR.
 
I forgot about the Roman space program! :p I'm sure they could go to space if they wanted to and a Roman lunar colony is definitely a cool idea! A divided London would be similar to OTL Rome, however, the fascist half would be completely isolated from the rest of the fascist world thanks to distance. The nearest fascist nation would probably be France. A London Wall is pretty likely, too. Canada would probably be taken by the USA from the UBPR in ATL WWII so if anything more of Canada would join the Yanks, it just wouldn't be stable because Canada wouldn't willingly join like in OTL. I can see Alaska being purchased, especially after Britain goes communist. The LoN would probably consist of Russia, the CSA, and Rome, which would replace the UBPR.
Well this scenario would be if the USA won the civil war. I thought we already established that a CSA without California would probably splinter and the union would probably be made communist. Oh well. :p (let's just say this could happen in either situation) :) In the case the union wins and this scenario occurs would there even be a LoN with out president Wilson (Democrat 1915-1921)? Or could he become president of the USA or be a prominent figure who could gain enough influence to get the LoN established? What ideologies would each country that would gain independence from Britain? (Wales, Scotland, and Ireland) How would England be divided? North-South? East-West? Or even North East- South West? Would it be possible for someone to be to do what FDR attempted to do in 1936? (Get a third term) What confederate president do you think would be the most likely to also be a president for the USA?
 
Top