What if gold was discovered say in 1849? (15 years later than OTL.) As we know because gold was discovered early it allowed for southern migration and eventually becoming a slave state after becoming independent (like our sister state Texas.) Would the Mexican American War have gone differently? How many states would we have? Most importantly, how would the civil war have gone. Would it have ended earlier or the same time as OTL (1866)
DBWI: What if California was a free state?
- Thread starter The_Russian
- Start date
I imagine that without the legalisation of Native Slavery in California, on the grounds that it was a continuation of the Mexican legal codes, which, along with the admittance of Deseret as a Free State, was the compromise that got the Free Staters in Congress to admit California to the Union, there wouldn't have been the horrific industrial scale genocide and enslavement of Native Californians. Which in turn wouldn't have set the precedent for mass enslaving Native Tribes within secessionist territory, particularly those who sided with the Union in the Indian Territories, after the rebels decided to "harmonise" their slave codes.
Even if the south did win in this timeline the post-war CSA would be far weaker and probably wouldn't be able to get the territory in the Rocky Mountains it was ceded in OTL. This also means that the CSA probably would never have a Pacific Coast which means no annexation of Hawaii, Alaska, or the Philippines.
Are we forgetting the annexations of Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Mexican states acquired in World War one? I don't see the Union taking any of these territories if the Union manages to win the alternate civil war.
Last edited:
I know I've seen speculation without slavery in California there would have been large scale Chinese immigration to the state which would have filled a labor shortage--this didn't happen OTL as they couldn't compete with slave labor. This would have some really interesting cultural implications.
I think that the CSA would never become the great power it was in OTL considering how vital California was. California had a large population, accessed the Pacific Coast, and was full of resources.
How do you think relations would be between the Confederacy and the union in a TL where the confederacy won. Would it be similar or different to today's relations. Also, if the union won, how would the post war relations between the states be? Would the 'radical republicans' take over the Republican Party? (lincoln's party)
If the CSA won I think that the relations of the CSA and USA in the modern day would swap. After the Northern Recession of 1879 and the communist uprisings in OTL the USA became completely reliant on the CSA, whether the Yankees liked it or not. In this timeline I think the CSA would not be able to sustain it's economy without California and would reluctantly become reliant on the USA. If the USA won the Civil War I doubt the Republican Party would be able to maintain itself and would split into a radical party and another party that would resemble the whigs that would probably assimilate the northern Democrats. I did actually once read a timeline where Lincoln gets assassinated after the Yankees win the Civil War so he can't influence the Republican Party.
Interesting, I'm curious about civil rights and list of presidents in a TL where the south wins, and where the union wins. I remember from history class that Ronald Reagan's (Conservative party 1981-1987) parents moved to California because of the unreast in Illinoils at the time which allowed Reagan to become POTCS later in his life. If California had not been a slave state he and some other presidents (2 more: Nixon-Conservative 1963-1969 and Brown-Progressive 1999-2005) wouldn't be POTCS but instead be POTUS. If the north won then it would be interesting to see which POTCS would be POTUS. Civil rights intreasts me because it barley passed OTL. As we know the Confederacy ended slavery in 1897 thanks in part to President Bowen. And desegregated in 1974 because of Arizona senator Bary Goldwater (member of the Conservative party) who was effectively the tie breaker in the vote. I saw a post a while back that said if the north won the civil war then it would probably desegregate in the 1960's but I think that's pretty late.Also would there be a small movement in the CSA to rejoin the USA like there is today in the USA for it to join the CSA (or at least some states)?
Last edited:
Well Reagen and Nixon's lives would be completely different in that timeline so it's impossible to predict where they'd end up. Slavery and segregation might last longer in this timeline because the CSA won't have an economy that could start to industrialize the south. There might be a reunification moment but that's assuming that the CSA would survive to the present day. In OTL there were many times when the nation almost collapsed thanks to segregation and the very decentralized Confederate government. In my opinion the CSA would probably collapse into a bunch of independent nations in this timeline.
Interesting. In this scenario where the Confederacy collapses wouldn't the Union try to retake the states that would secede. A good example would be if the Virginia in the Union tried to get the Union to annex the Independent nation of Virginia. In this alternate world where the CSA wins (and collapses) what nations would the Cold War be between? What ideologies would it be between? OTL it was between CSA (Capitalist Democracy) and Britan (Communist dictatorship). What nations would be what ideology? OTL the 'Western Block' was communist and the 'Eastern Block' was capitalist (Thanks in part to Russia during World War Two.) What nations could be divided (Examples being: Communist East Australia and Capitalist West Australia, Capitalist North China and Communist South China, and Communist West India and Capitalist East India) Without Confederate Intervention, could the Reds have won the Russian Civil War instead of the Whites. If the Union won then would it fill the void of the Confederacy? My friend suggested a scenario where there is a Cold War between the Union and a communist Russia. Who would be first to space, how about the moon? Would it just be one nation or a joint mission? How many nations would go to the moon? (If Any)
OOC: OTL West Virginia=the Virginia in the Union. Western Block includes OTL Western Block except Italy and Greece, and the Western block also includes all of Germany. The Eastern Block includes OTL Eastern Block plus Italy.
I don't think the Yankees would be able to sustain the south, at least well. By the modern day the USA would have either collapsed or would be on the constant brink of collapse. The British Revolution was practically inevitable, considering how oppressive the British Empire was of its colonies, so there would still be a Union of Britannian People's Republics by the modern day. I think the Russian Civil War was very likely too, however, the fate of both Russia and all of Europe in general depends on how this alternate WW1 goes. Many people think the 2nd Holy Alliance so win without the CSA aiding the Internationale, however, I think that the Ottomans declaring war on Russia and siding with the Internationale was the turning point of the war. The CSA had a far greater role in WWII and the Pacific War, so even if WWI ends the same these two conflicts would be very different. Assuming that WWII and the Pacific War go similarly in this timeline the Cold War would probably be the same as in OTL, just minus the CSA and its "allies" of OTL. I imagine that the USA might become a prime source of proxy wars as the UBPR and Russia would fund secessionist and radical groups.
OOC: The 2nd Holy Alliance is the Russians, Germans, Mexicans, and Austro-Hungarians while the Internationale is the UBPR and Communist France while the CSA, Ottoman Empire, and USA eventually join WWI on their side.
I can change any of this if you like and I really enjoy this DBWI so far!
A lot of this thread has been about ACW-related events but what about the Mexican-American War? Without the mass migration of Americans to California in the Gold Rush there would never be a Republic of California to join the USA which might mean that the USA takes less land from Mexico.
I don't think the Yankees would be able to sustain the south, at least well. By the modern day the USA would have either collapsed or would be on the constant brink of collapse. The British Revolution was practically inevitable, considering how oppressive the British Empire was of its colonies, so there would still be a Union of Britannian People's Republics by the modern day. I think the Russian Civil War was very likely too, however, the fate of both Russia and all of Europe in general depends on how this alternate WW1 goes. Many people think the 2nd Holy Alliance so win without the CSA aiding the Internationale, however, I think that the Ottomans declaring war on Russia and siding with the Internationale was the turning point of the war. The CSA had a far greater role in WWII and the Pacific War, so even if WWI ends the same these two conflicts would be very different. Assuming that WWII and the Pacific War go similarly in this timeline the Cold War would probably be the same as in OTL, just minus the CSA and its "allies" of OTL. I imagine that the USA might become a prime source of proxy wars as the UBPR and Russia would fund secessionist and radical groups.
OOC: The 2nd Holy Alliance is the Russians, Germans, Mexicans, and Austro-Hungarians while the Internationale is the UBPR and Communist France while the CSA, Ottoman Empire, and USA eventually join WWI on their side.
I can change any of this if you like and I really enjoy this DBWI so far!
Yes the USA could have been a target for proxy wars without the protection of the CSA, but I think that no matter what, if Germany is on the losing side of WW1 the Nazis will still rise to power (especially with communists taking over nations all around them.) The alliances in WW2 basically determined sides of the Cold War. Without the Third Holy Alliance and the Worker's Alliance teaming up to take out the Axis with the CSA joining the Third Holy Alliance after Japan invaded the Philippines in January 1940 (8 months after Hitler Invaded the Russian Empire and 2 years after the invasion of France) WW2 could have ended around 1942 instead of 1946 if the Reds won the Russian Civil War and no help from either one of the Americas (Yankees and or Dixis, not the continents.) This could mean the UBPR never collapses and spreads communism throughout the world with Soviet Russia (Soviet was a term the Russian communists used when referring to themselves. Plus it sounds cool.)
I agree that the USA would have taken less territory. I think they still would have taken South California, Yucatan, and Rio Grande but probably not East and West Sonora. I don't see a South Arizona forming without there being a West Sonora in the Union for a South Arizona to form out of Arizona and Sonora. I don't think in this scenario the Confederacy would ever get it's border at 25th Latitude North (With the exception of all of the California Peninsula that contains all of OTL South California.)
OOC: South California=OTL Baja California, East Sonora=OTL Chihuahua. West Sonora= OTL Sonora. South Arizona= OTL Arizona part of the Gadsden Purchase + 30th Latitude North until it reaches 110 Longitude West.
Interesting. One thing to point out is that the Russian Civil War was pretty one sided. In reality it was just a short war against commie militias across Russia. The only notable consequences of the war were the death of the Romanov family, the independence of Ukraine, and the Confederate-Russian non-aggression pact. Even without Confederate aid the soviets would still probably lose. One thing to note is that both the CSA and USA sent a lot of soldiers to Europe, partially to prevent total communist dominance of West Europe (hence why Spain, Portugal, and South Italy all sided with Moscow-Richmond Coalition in the Cold War).
Many people overlook that the communist nations such as Britain and France helped the Reds.Though the independence of Poland and Ukraine was granted, them siding with the Nazis in WW2 got them re-absorbed into the Russian Empire (of course there are still minor movements for independence, it doesn't help that Russian President Kolchak Russified large portions of both populations in addition to him Russifing Belarus, the Balkans, and central asia.) The death of the Romanov family was important because even though the monarchy would be re-established due to President Kolchak being friends with Kirill I (of course it is a constitutional monarchy that had no real power with the Duma and President running the place, still Nicholas II and his family being murdered by the Reds marked the end of unquestioned power) it showed the confederates what communist revolutionaries could do. Spain only joined the Moscow-Richmond Coalition because it was the Confederate backed Capitalists vs the Nazi and Italian backed Fascists in the Spanish theater of WW2 (or as it was called before 1938: the Spanish Civil War.) South Italy sided with the Moscow-Richmond Coalition because they needed help in the Italian Civil. Without it joining the Coalition it wouldn't have re-unified in 1987 under capitalism but probably much earlier and under communism say 1954 when the armistice was signed OTL. WW2 was unkind to the Ottoman Empire which in turned caused the Turkish Revolution that established the People's Republic of Turkey. The Greek annexation of East Thrace (With the exception of the Russian annexation of Constantinople), the region of Marmara and Aegean. Along with Russian annexation of East Anatolia, Constantinople+the Kirill zone (25 mile radius of the center of Constantinople) the Horon part of Turkey, the establishment of Judea and Lebanon as puppet states. The UBPR creating puppet states in Syria, Kurdistan, and Iraq made the Sultan lose prestige and caused the communists to rebell. Germany was made communist through the treaty of Kiev with Russia taking East Prussia, Silesia, and Pomerania. The Republic of Bohemia and the Slovak Republic were granted independence from Germany in the treaty of Kiev as well. What nation would develop the Atomic bomb in your world? In OTL the CSA, Russia, Yugoslavia, and North China worked on the Hollywood project which allowed for the atomic bomb to be used on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Kokura by the CSA which made Japan surrender in 1945. The fourth was used on Munich in 1946 which caused Nazi leadership to surrender and be tried in the Vienna Trials (fun fact: Hitler attempted to kill himself on the way to Vienna. Be interesting if he died during or immediately after the war instead of 1947.) With greater communist influence in Western and Eastern Europe the would be no President Eisenhower (Conservative 1951-1957) because after WW2 he rode on a wave of support because the Confederacy and its allies got the better part in the Treaty of Kiev into the Presidential Mansion. How would the modern world look if all of this occurred differently? Would the European Union of Socialist States still be around? (It was this minor alliance at the end of the cold war that sought to establish a single communist european state) would there be an American free travel association between the USA and CSA? Would the Blues (democratic-capitalists) have lost the Canadian civil war and joined the United States? Could the Mexican uprising have a chance? Would Australia have re-unified in 2002? What about the Slavic Union? I saw a post a while back that said instead of Japan being divided, Korea was divided, could that have happened, because the post was very interesting. What nations would have landed on the moon and gone into space? Could any nations have gone to mars?
OOC:Slavic Union and American Union are both like EU. I too am enjoying this DBWI
When I was talking about the Russian Civil War being small I meant that the commies didn't really stand a chance, sorry about not clarifying that!Many people overlook that the communist nations such as Britain and France helped the Reds.Though the independence of Poland and Ukraine was granted, them siding with the Nazis in WW2 got them re-absorbed into the Russian Empire (of course there are still minor movements for independence, it doesn't help that Russian President Kolchak Russified large portions of both populations in addition to him Russifing Belarus, the Balkans, and central asia.) The death of the Romanov family was important because even though the monarchy would be re-established due to President Kolchak being friends with Kirill I (of course it is a constitutional monarchy that had no real power with the Duma and President running the place, still Nicholas II and his family being murdered by the Reds marked the end of unquestioned power) it showed the confederates what communist revolutionaries could do. Spain only joined the Moscow-Richmond Coalition because it was the Confederate backed Capitalists vs the Nazi and Italian backed Fascists in the Spanish theater of WW2 (or as it was called before 1938: the Spanish Civil War.) South Italy sided with the Moscow-Richmond Coalition because they needed help in the Italian Civil. Without it joining the Coalition it wouldn't have re-unified in 1987 under capitalism but probably much earlier and under communism say 1954 when the armistice was signed OTL. WW2 was unkind to the Ottoman Empire which in turned caused the Turkish Revolution that established the People's Republic of Turkey. The Greek annexation of East Thrace (With the exception of the Russian annexation of Constantinople), the region of Marmara and Aegean. Along with Russian annexation of East Anatolia, Constantinople+the Kirill zone (25 mile radius of the center of Constantinople) the Horon part of Turkey, the establishment of Judea and Lebanon as puppet states. The UBPR creating puppet states in Syria, Kurdistan, and Iraq made the Sultan lose prestige and caused the communists to rebell. Germany was made communist through the treaty of Kiev with Russia taking East Prussia, Silesia, and Pomerania. The Republic of Bohemia and the Slovak Republic were granted independence from Germany in the treaty of Kiev as well. What nation would develop the Atomic bomb in your world? In OTL the CSA, Russia, Yugoslavia, and North China worked on the Hollywood project which allowed for the atomic bomb to be used on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Kokura by the CSA which made Japan surrender in 1945. The fourth was used on Munich in 1946 which caused Nazi leadership to surrender and be tried in the Vienna Trials (fun fact: Hitler attempted to kill himself on the way to Vienna. Be interesting if he died during or immediately after the war instead of 1947.) With greater communist influence in Western and Eastern Europe the would be no President Eisenhower (Conservative 1951-1957) because after WW2 he rode on a wave of support because the Confederacy and its allies got the better part in the Treaty of Kiev into the Presidential Mansion. How would the modern world look if all of this occurred differently? Would the European Union of Socialist States still be around? (It was this minor alliance at the end of the cold war that sought to establish a single communist european state) would there be an American free travel association between the USA and CSA? Would the Blues (democratic-capitalists) have lost the Canadian civil war and joined the United States? Could the Mexican uprising have a chance? Would Australia have re-unified in 2002? What about the Slavic Union? I saw a post a while back that said instead of Japan being divided, Korea was divided, could that have happened, because the post was very interesting. What nations would have landed on the moon and gone into space? Could any nations have gone to mars?
OOC:Slavic Union and American Union are both like EU. I too am enjoying this DBWI
I'm not sure who would develop the atomic bomb first but Britain and Russia are both safe bets. Maybe the Neo-Roman Empire would if WW2 lasted long enough, however, I find it unlikely considering that they were more focused on the construction of tanks. Assuming the Axis still loses WW2 then the world wouldn't be too different, however, I do see a few changes. The most notable one would be in the former USA which would probably have been partitioned between communists, secessionists, and whoever else could get a hold on American territory. I'd assume that the Russians would sign a ceasefire with the Japanese like they did in OTL and without the CSA there would never be a Pacific War a few years after WW2. This means that the Japanese Empire could still exist in the modern day, as well as Fascist Brazil, Fascist Chile, and National Syndicalist Mexico (although I find the latter three less likely considering the fact that they weren't the most stable).Got ya.I only see the us being partitioned if it joined on the side of the losers (being isolationist that seems unlikely) I could see a communist revolution occurring with many states trying to secede. If the Great Depression happens in this TL then the communists are sure to take over. Without a leader who could lead the USA out of a depression (better to keep them out of it), and keep it from joining the losing side of World War 2 (better to have the US join the winning side) it probably would be partitioned. You would probably have to have a president who had enough influence and was president long enough (More than 2 terms. say 3-4) to actually prevent a partition of the US. Is this possible? If the US gave up on the Monroe treaty in this TL like OTL then Syndicalist Mecixo, facist chile and Brazil would still exist because the British would still have backed the Mexican Revolution and the Neo-Roman empire would have still participated in the civil wars of Brazil and chile. The Japanese empire was a prime target for the UBPR, the People's Republic of France, the German Democratic Republic and Syndicalist Mexico to prop up the revolutionaries because it only stabilized in 1950. This was mainly due to the Pacific war actually starting up and the Emperor using it to unify Japan. Without the Pacific War occurring I believe the UBPR and the People's French Republic (PFR) Would have propped up the communist because the Japanese Empire was a threat to the puppet states they had in Asia (Vietnam, South China, the Raj Republic, etc.) Another result of no Pacific War would be Japan wouldn't have been divided for 41 years (1955-1996) between the capitalist north and communist south. The Confederates would probably not own Hong Kong (only Confederate State in Asia) thus keeping the Confederates out of Chinese politics. We've been talking about the middle part of the 20th century so far, but what about the beginning? Is it possible that with a union victory the UBPR would still be the British Empire like in Harry Turtledove's book The Colder War? If so, what scenario would have to occur to allow the King to win in the British Civil war or even prevent it?When I was talking about the Russian Civil War being small I meant that the commies didn't really stand a chance, sorry about not clarifying that!