DBWI what are your views on PM Oswald Mosley?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Gukpard, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. Gukpard hominem populist

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    Sir Oswald Mosley (1896-1982) was one of the greatest and still most controversial PMs of the UK and head of states in history, being the longest ruling PM even surpassing Walpole. He got the power after becoming the main figure of the Labour party and led the UK during the world war II and the following years, being the main mind behind the british welfare state (that got butchered by the conservatives during the 70s, but still got some remains like the NHS), one of the main proponents of the approximation of the british commonwealth members and also for his very controversial protecionist policies, as he stopped the de-industrialization of the UK in one hand, saving millions of jobs, but kept a very inneficient industry working and caused problems with the bureocracy.

    The main mark of his government was WWII, without a doubt, his speech on june 4 of 1940 after the collapse of the french government¹, where he delivered his massive speech to the public on a rally where 100 thousand people attended, and other millions listened it through the radio, thankfully not being interrupted by the luftwaffe as the RAF could garantee the air superiority during the event, his charisma was without equal.

    In the other hand, many people consider that the progressive reforms he passed had the main objective to concentrate power on himself, thus provoking the schism between pro-mosleyte figures and anti-mosleyte figures on the labour party on the aftermath of his death. He constantly used his popularity and the state of war to enact more and more security measures, nationalized many private industries and built a cult to his personality to the point that some considered him a left leaning proto fascist. On the aftermath of the war Mosley also tried to cling to the colonies, something that in one hand led to the collapse of his personality cult as more and more criticism inside and outside the UK began to rise against his pro colonial stance, plus also worsening the state of the british economy already suffering from the bureocratic problems as he tried to keep colonies that were basically draining money from the royal treasure, but on the other side of the coin he created a stronger sense of unity between Britain and the dominions, especially after sponsoring and supporting on the radio the blank coup in South africa that ousted the national party and ended the horrible and inhumane policy of apertheid, while also working in the following years to accept SA back in the commonwealth to the point that they recognize the Queen Elizabeth as their figurehead leader.

    So, what do you think of Mosley? I might had got one or two things wrong here and there since I'm not british, but I think he is a very interesting figure. Just... don't fight, all right? I know that pro Mosleyte figures and anti mosleyte people hate themselves, but keep this civil for the admins to not crash on us.

    ¹This timeline version on "We shall never surrender" speech, basically going full populist and delivering it in public during the darkest hour of the UK as a act of defiance to the Germans. It is also considered by some a very unresponsible populist and demagogic event, as had the Germans bombed the place they could have killed dozens of thousands of people and the PM.
     
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  2. EbolaMan131 Dick Pound 2020

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    Well for one thing a hella of a lot of young British men would still be alive and not in that god. forsaken place called India
     
  3. SealTheRealDeal Well-Known Member

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    Some heroes live too long and become villains, I won't say for certain he went quite that far, but he was certainly heading that way.
     
  4. JN1 Has been called the C word on Twitter

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    OOC: Now if only someone had written a book about a possible PM Mosley. And if only that person was a member of AH.com. ;)
     
  5. Sam R. Well-Known Member

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    May 11, 2011
    Much like Stalin, Mussolini or Hitler Mosley was a sad small deeply flawed man who was the proxy of greater institutional forces. In Mosley’s case these were empire, nationalisation, the security state, needlessly extending failed industrial models and a less than optimal war causing reactive lionisation. He added a slight colour to the demands of the institutional structure of British political economy.
     
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  6. Everdarklegion Active Member

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    The only way I see Mosley getting anywhere near being PM, lays entirely with King Edward 8th. If Edward had chosen to refuse to abdicate, a Kings Party with Winston Churchill and Oswald Mosely as it's leaders could be how Mosely becomes PM. Edward's biggest supporters were Churchill and Mosley. This way Mosley's reputation stays untainted. PM Mosley would have to wait to after WW2 though.
     
  7. Dolan Lookin fer Gooby

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    Like it or not, Mosley is one of the important figures that shaped WW2 as we know it. Without his correspondences to convince Mussolini to enter the war on Allied side, Italy might end up joining the war on Axis side instead and the war could end up dragged into early or even late 50's instead of ended at November 1947. The Jews of Europe would end up totally extinct instead of having 8 Million died in the Holocaust. Japan would end up fighting to the death instead of agree with White Peace and agree to quit with only Korea and Manchuria while returning the rest of European colonies taken at war, thanks to PM Mosley's top notch diplomatic skills.

    Moseley js not a perfect man, but he did have his important contribution and leadership to lead Britain in her most trying time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  8. Gukpard hominem populist

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    What is your personal opinion of Mosley, however? You can be biased as you want, I just want to know it.
     
  9. lightning dude Bruh Moment

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    Jun 3, 2017
    The Indian War would of not costed nearly 25,000 British lives, for one. Classified MI6 documents leaked by David Cameron, an aide, also showed that the supposed plane crash where Ghandi died in was actually orchestrated by the MI5. Had he not ordered the assassination of Ghandi, I don’t think that over 150,000 Indians and 25,000 British would die.
     
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  10. Sam R. Well-Known Member

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    May 11, 2011
    A traitor to the Labour Party’s purpose, and to the working man’s cause. As usual for Labour leaders. In Mosley’s case it is more than usually obvious that the aristocrats and bosses had him “selected” as leader to ensure that revolution like in 1924 would be impossible should labour achieve power. At every moment the worst trait, tendency or predilection within the Labour Party and Movement were exacerbated by Mosley. When the least worst option presented itself chauvinism and pettiness lead the way. Ireland. India. Malaya. And at home too. Prevention of seditious strikes act was used to keep not only the cost of the war down, not only the working class down, but his factional enemies in labour. The extended preventative detention of Communists and Independent Labour Party adherents for gods sakes, into the 1950s during the simultaneous Indian War and Emergency paints Mosley as the filth he was, bastard to Britons and Colonials.

    “He won the war,” my arse he did. Indian soldiers and African militia and Dominion aircrews and UK workers (even the ones he had shot or hanged) won the war. Mosley appeared in newsreels and congratulated himself.

    As the Cairo and Delhi mutineers in the RAF and Army stated in 1947 in their petitions for relief: his criminality was only exceeded by Hitler and Hirohito.

    Scum rises.

    Yours,
    Sam R.
     
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  11. Galba Otho Vitelius Well-Known Member

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    Even "democratic" socialists tend to be at least somewhat authoritarian. My alternative history question is who becomes leader of the Labour Party after Lansbury resigns if Moseley is not available for some reason. IOTL, he became Labour Party leader by accident, since he was the only Cabinet member apart from Lansbury to both remain in the party and to retain his seat in the 1931 landslide for the "National Government". If Moseley for some reason loses his seat in 1931 or leaves the party who becomes Labour leader? Even assuming Henderson keeps his seat he died in 1935 so it doesn't work. I'm wondering if this alternative Labour leader would have turned out much like Moseley. They had a very shallow bench.

    I'd be interested in a scenario where the Tories, or the "National Government" wins in 1935, since the election was a big upset, and assuming Anthony Eden still becomes Conservative Party leader after Neville Chamberlain dies in 1940, I suspect he would have done a better job than he wound up doing as PM if he reached Downing Street earlier and in better health.
     
  12. Dolan Lookin fer Gooby

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    Weird that you didn't mention Stalin's brutal genocide, too...

    Well yes, the Indian turncoats' petition did mention Mosley being literally worse than Hitler and Hirohito, but then, many of them end up serving in SS Aryavarta after Shubhas Chandra Bose urged them to do so while his Japanese backed movement launched their 1946 revolt.

    Yes, Germany did end up crushed in the end, but the Great Indian Betrayal is the one who made the war unwinnable in Asia. It has been suggested that simultaneous Soviet-American invasion of Manchuria and Japanese Home Islands might be enough to force Japan to surrender, but Patton - Zhukov incident at Berlin forced the Western Allies to move against Soviet Union instead.

    It was a testimony of Mosley and Mussolini's acumen that they managed to made Japanese literally abandon their position of strength in favor of White Peace in the east.

    Yes, Americans and Chinese still scream bloody murder for the perceived "Perfidious Albion and Snake-Tongued Romans", but Americans need to remember that this is all Patton's fault at the first place.
     
  13. Sam R. Well-Known Member

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    Not really given the role of RAF Communist Party cells in both the Cairo and Delhi RAF and Army “mutinies.” You’re obviously confusing the “British” mutiny in the Middle East and India with the Indian Army mutineers. Completely different mutinies.

    Yeah, you definitely got the two mutinies in India confused. The 1946 mutiny would have hung Stalin as a Communist. The 1947 one would have asked why Mosley “wasn’t supporting our greatest ally.” I’m not blaming you, but asking why the left of the labour movement in the armed forces didn’t mention the Ukraine famine or Siberian camps is like asking why contemporary mosleyites don’t mention the Bengal famine of 1943-1947, or the atypically large number of coronial results of “shot while escaping” and “natural causes” in Orkney Special Provisions Camps.
     
  14. Dolan Lookin fer Gooby

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    It was honestly result of the most confusing conflict that almost plunged The Allies immediately into the hypothetical Third World War with the Soviet Union before Germany could be fully occupied.

    At least the Tripolar Cold War stays cold instead of going hot. It is kind of surreal to pre-1947 people, but British Empire, Italian Empire, and Japanese Empire now end up heading the Imperialist Bloc, stand opposed to the Capitalist Bloc (with USA heading a bunch of economically dependent states), and the Communist Bloc (headed by Soviet Union who has mamber nations put under their Iron Curtain of East and Central Europe).

    Sure, the Imperialistic Bloc has been derisively derided in the past as outdated empires band together to opress their Colonies, but the fact is, without them, British Empire might end up fall completely (instead of merely losing India)
     
  15. TimTurner Cartoon Phanatic

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    Mosley was responsible for the forced re-incorporation of Southern Ireland into the UK, and tons of ethnic cleansing (with rebelling areas being uprooted and dumped in various cities in England, and the uprooting of various English people and their being placed in Ireland). To this day, this has somewhat chilled relations between the US and the UK. Though today the "Irish Genocide" is more or less acknowledged by 80% of the UK population, but its demographic effects has continued to this day; around two-thirds of people on the island of Ireland are self-identified with English culture. And it ensured Ireland would never again be an independent country.

    OOC: What would stop Mosley from doing this?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  16. Dolan Lookin fer Gooby

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    Apr 4, 2018
    Both English and Irish has been together since the Norman conquest, and Ireland has always been controlled by Britain ever after.

    Plus the short stint of so called Irish Independence has proven the Irish Republic to be ally of Naziism. Britain would prefer to left them alone, to be honest, but sheltering Nazi U-Boats at their ports where they are used to attack British soil is just way too much.

    Sure, Mosley did overreacted by dispersing the Irish culture while resettling their land with Englishmen. It did cause short term tragedy, but the long term result is stability.

    It is also kind of misnomer to call Mosley as racist when he is the one who end up the Apartheid rule of South Africa, and one of the first man who defend Crown Prince Alexander* when the later told the Queen that he wants to Marry Princess Monala of Lesotho,arguing that since both are of Royal stock and Protestants, they should be free to marry even if she is a Black African. The true racists is the one who can't accept the fact that after Queen Elizabeth and Prince Alexander, Prince Edward has African features.



    *. Alternate Prince Charles ITTL.