DBWI Venice doesn't regain its independence

The serine republic, a small successful banking nation that has lasted for hundreds of years had a period of time where their independence as a nation was in grave danger. During the Napolionic wars the country was briefly conqured and were made to be a part of a greater Italy.

During the congress of Vienna the Serine republic regained their independence and has managed to remain independent to this day, but what if that didn't happen what would a world with out Venice look like?
 
Perhaps another nation becomes the neutral home of the League of Nations and related organisations?

Good point other then switzerland there arn't a lot of countries that are trusted to be neutral enough to host those kinds of functions and switzerland doesn't have access to the ocean which makes it a pain in the butt as a place to go.

At the very least it would never be put in a great power nation, for obvious reasons.
 
Good point other then switzerland there arn't a lot of countries that are trusted to be neutral enough to host those kinds of functions and switzerland doesn't have access to the ocean which makes it a pain in the butt as a place to go.

At the very least it would never be put in a great power nation, for obvious reasons.
True though does the regime in Switzerland count as neutral? It is rather republican.
 
If Venice didn't get its independence back, Italy would probably have to deal with rebels. Eventually, Venice would either return after Italy's unable to handle them, or Venice becomes independent through other means. ASB.
 
But as we know Venice has two colonies the island of Crete and Suez.

As Venice has had the lands of Crete since old times and it was once again given ownership of the Island after a brief Ottoman occupation and was granted the lands of the suez peninsula after the Egyptian war so that a neutral colony could build a canal to help the international community.

The question what would happen two the colonies or as there officially known

"The Serene Overseas Territories"
 
Well, the first thing you'd see is Eastern Europe being deprived of a financial center; I presume in a world in which Venice isen't independent and we're still seeing Napoleon fall the region would be annexed either into Lombardy or perhaps Austria. Without the pro-industrial and pro-banking laws of the state, I can't imagine the attraction/generation of as much capital under the reactionary regimes of post-Napoleonic Italy or Metternich's Vienna, so you'd see alot less industrial/infrastructural development in the Ottoman Balkans; Bosnia and Albania in particular, and Lombardy (Vienna is probably a wash; its hard to say if having access to the world markets via a decent port would make up for their limited access to capital in terms of allowing Upper Austria, Tyrol's, and Slavonia's moderate industrial development IRL. Any development that did happen would probably be more politically motivated than purely economical though). This would result, in the long run, in a weaker, more agricultural Ottomans and less urbanization in the centeral Italian states, as well as perhaps a politically-stronger Hapsburgs. We may even see the Turks get beaten on enough to lose their control of the Balkans before Islamization sets in, allowing for the formation of Orthodox states beyond Romania to form and Russia to expand its influence enough to avoid its economic collapse and the Eastern Crisis.

Secondly, Italian Pan-Nationalism might have been able to survive its post-Napoleonic drop in popularity, since it woulden't be totally associated with French influence as it is in our timeline (The fact that Paris was always funding those Pan-Nationalists diden't help). The Papal States and Two Sicilies might have been strong enough to survive, but I imagine Sardinia, Piedmont, Genoa, Lombardy, Lucca, Venice (If not under Austria), and Modenia would have at least Federated, rather than remaining in the weak "firm league of friendship" of the Not Roman, Not Holy, Not Confederation. How an Italy would have affected the European Balance of Power depends alot on its size and butterflies though, as well as how strong its level of political unity is.
 
But as we know Venice has two colonies the island of Crete and Suez.

As Venice has had the lands of Crete since old times and it was once again given ownership of the Island after a brief Ottoman occupation and was granted the lands of the suez peninsula after the Egyptian war so that a neutral colony could build a canal to help the international community.

The question what would happen two the colonies or as there officially known

"The Serene Overseas Territories"

Crete probably Ottoman, undergoing further Islamization as the rest of the Balkans (Or maybe not, due to its relative isolation) though I find it difficult to call over 150 years of control "Brief". Who else would the Sultan-Caliph had felt comfortable selling it to as well as having been interested in buying it in exchange for cancallation of its war debts?

The Suez... again, likely remains under the Ottomans along with the rest of the Vilyet. After all, the two Territories fates to Venice are rather closely linked thanks to the city's clever political-economic co-ordination. Venitian loans funding the Ottoman military reforms and efforts that allowed for such a crushing victory in the Egyptian War and later Caucasian War were what created the debt that lead to the sale of Crete in the first place. Or, if the Ottomans can't find an alternative source of loans to the point they have to accept Egyptian independence, than Egypt would control the region; being seen as non-threatening and malliable enough (without the strength to pursue its own forgiegn policy or be economically independent) to been seen as an acceptable custodian for such an internationally important channel of commerce and potential strategic chokepoint
 
Last edited:
is the POD here the Congress of Vienna doesn't just return everything to the 1789 borders?

Because if they decide to start accepting and adapting some of the Napoleonic changes this affects a lot more than Venice. And I'm not sure if the settlement will hold together better or worse than it proved to do.
 
is the POD here the Congress of Vienna doesn't just return everything to the 1789 borders?

Because if they decide to start accepting and adapting some of the Napoleonic changes this affects a lot more than Venice. And I'm not sure if the settlement will hold together better or worse than it proved to do.

I think so. Or they could have other changes kept (The consolidation of the H.R.E states, for instance) while returning the situation in the Italian Peninsula only. I suppose that's still open to debate... though I'd personally put the POD after the finalized Napoleonic peace treaties, just to be safe and avoid creating a thousand diverging timelines.
 
I think so. Or they could have other changes kept (The consolidation of the H.R.E states, for instance) while returning the situation in the Italian Peninsula only. I suppose that's still open to debate... though I'd personally put the POD after the finalized Napoleonic peace treaties, just to be safe and avoid creating a thousand diverging timelines.

there is no way in hell france even a defeated france would accept a great power on its borders, same with Russia, a unified germany is going to get stomped by all the great powers, its literally in no ones intrests, except the few german nationalists who still wont give up.
 
there is no way in hell france even a defeated france would accept a great power on its borders, same with Russia, a unified germany is going to get stomped by all the great powers, its literally in no ones intrests, except the few german nationalists who still wont give up.

Who said anything about a united Germany?

I meant the temporary anomaly of the Rheinsbund; when Napoleon propped up those few German states that aligned with him by splitting the other 300+ Germanies among them? Even elevating some of them to Kingdoms in their own right like Bavaria and Wuttembourg. Pan-Germanism is utter maddness; then again the Emperor WAS known for his radical political experimentation.
 
Top