DBWI: Unsuccessful Sealion?

Now, I know you guys tend to make fun of threads like these, but I can't get the idea out of my head. What if Sealion had failed?
 
NAZI, the great environmental group, would exist no matter what. I'd say, with pollution as it is, Operation Sealion, the operation that showed of the extent of environmental degradation in Britain, would exist no matter what. Some group or another would do that.
 
NAZI, the great environmental group, would exist no matter what. I'd say, with pollution as it is, Operation Sealion, the operation that showed of the extent of environmental degradation in Britain, would exist no matter what. Some group or another would do that.

Of course it would. Operation Sealion was run and funded by thethe UK government through the Environmental Agency, not the radical North Atlantic Zone Integrity group who are just a bunch of nutcases who make Greenpeace look reasonable. NAZI used the publicity surrounding their borderline terrorist political protests to claim that Sealion was a direct result of their actions when in fact it had been planed by the British government years prior. NAZI launching Operation Sealion made a good story for the TV but the truth is much less exciting. Besides, a comprehensive survey of coastal marine life was always beyond the NAZI capabilities.
 
Of course it would. Operation Sealion was run and funded by thethe UK government through the Environmental Agency, not the radical North Atlantic Zone Integrity group who are just a bunch of nutcases who make Greenpeace look reasonable. NAZI used the publicity surrounding their borderline terrorist political protests to claim that Sealion was a direct result of their actions when in fact it had been planed by the British government years prior. NAZI launching Operation Sealion made a good story but the truth is much less exciting.

Conspiracy theories are banned on this site. If you keep up with this, MaineLobster will ban you.

(All IC)
 
It's a real shame when all the sea lions beached themselves in the Channel. I'm from Normandy and even to this day, you can't walk three feet without crunching some dead sea mammals, it's pretty disgusting.

Of course, if you call it operation Sealion you probably refer to that stupid theory saying the Nazi intentionally created a magnetic disturbance forcing seals to commit suicide on the beaches of England to disrupt tourism and morale. I have seen the documentaries and the youtube videos, I still think it's not a great theory
 
OOC: Have to ask: does MaineLobster send folk to Coventry, or does he send them somewhere worse, like Wolverhampton or Milton Keynes?

And yes, I know what Coventry really comes from, but still... ;)

OOC: Dunno. It was on another DBWI thread, and I did the same "no conspiracy theories" joke, and came up with MaineLobser on the fly. I was born and raised in Maine, so it was an easy collocation.
 
While this topic draws alot of jokes, people of course forget why the invasion of England in 1940 succeeded. It succeeded for the exact same reason that the Dutch invasion in 1688 succeeded, why "the 45" almost succeeded, and why a large number of invasions of England during the Middle Ages succeeded. And of course the reason is that a good portion of the English establishment (and people) wanted it to succeed. They viewed the alternative German-backed regime as more legitimate than the government then in power in London.

If you look at the history of the Spanish Armada, you will see that invading England in the face of actual, organized resistance and a united elite is really difficult. Of course its rarely tried. The invasions almost always occur during some sort of civil war or revolution.

I do think to have Sealion fail, you need a POD that goes back decades earlier. The big one would probably be to avoid banning the Labour Party and have Labour compete in elections same as the other parties, and even participate in governments. You may have to stop the successful infiltration of Labour by the Communists in order to do this.

This is probably not enough on its own. You will probably need to avoid the abolishment of the monarchy and the establishment of the Second Commonwealth after George V died. Of course if the Labour Party is still legal and parliamentary and judicial institutions are functioning properly, this could be butterflied away. You don't even need to get "Edward VIII" on the throne, I understand many people think he was less than suitable given his actions in 1940 but maybe he steps aside in favor of the Duke of York over some scandal.

The Second Commonwealth was also known for not having exactly the best political talent, either because they were on the left, loyal to the monarchy, or just viewed as too dangerous, with the former Liberal minister Winston Churchill, who had accurately warned of the threat from Germany, fitting into all three categories.

Maybe somehow avoiding Curzon becoming PM is a sufficient POD.

But if Britain -it still would have been the United Kingdom- had been governed by a constitutional government that was actually supported by most of the population, the evidence shows that they would have been able to fend off any invasion of the continent. Just avoiding the naval mutiny would have been enough! Probably an invasion would have been threatened as sort of a feint but no landings would have been made.

I haven't addressed the implications, but the butterflies are huge in having a surviving United Kingdom that is a thorn in the side of the Third Reich, instead of the puppet English Kingdom and weak Scottish Kingdom IOTL. And it would have been much better for Britain's Jews, though maybe that whole sad chapter would have been butterflied as well.
 
While this topic draws alot of jokes, people of course forget why the invasion of England in 1940 succeeded. It succeeded for the exact same reason that the Dutch invasion in 1688 succeeded, why "the 45" almost succeeded, and why a large number of invasions of England during the Middle Ages succeeded. And of course the reason is that a good portion of the English establishment (and people) wanted it to succeed. They viewed the alternative German-backed regime as more legitimate than the government then in power in London.

If you look at the history of the Spanish Armada, you will see that invading England in the face of actual, organized resistance and a united elite is really difficult. Of course its rarely tried. The invasions almost always occur during some sort of civil war or revolution.

I do think to have Sealion fail, you need a POD that goes back decades earlier. The big one would probably be to avoid banning the Labour Party and have Labour compete in elections same as the other parties, and even participate in governments. You may have to stop the successful infiltration of Labour by the Communists in order to do this.

This is probably not enough on its own. You will probably need to avoid the abolishment of the monarchy and the establishment of the Second Commonwealth after George V died. Of course if the Labour Party is still legal and parliamentary and judicial institutions are functioning properly, this could be butterflied away. You don't even need to get "Edward VIII" on the throne, I understand many people think he was less than suitable given his actions in 1940 but maybe he steps aside in favor of the Duke of York over some scandal.

The Second Commonwealth was also known for not having exactly the best political talent, either because they were on the left, loyal to the monarchy, or just viewed as too dangerous, with the former Liberal minister Winston Churchill, who had accurately warned of the threat from Germany, fitting into all three categories.

Maybe somehow avoiding Curzon becoming PM is a sufficient POD.

But if Britain -it still would have been the United Kingdom- had been governed by a constitutional government that was actually supported by most of the population, the evidence shows that they would have been able to fend off any invasion of the continent. Just avoiding the naval mutiny would have been enough! Probably an invasion would have been threatened as sort of a feint but no landings would have been made.

I haven't addressed the implications, but the butterflies are huge in having a surviving United Kingdom that is a thorn in the side of the Third Reich, instead of the puppet English Kingdom and weak Scottish Kingdom IOTL. And it would have been much better for Britain's Jews, though maybe that whole sad chapter would have been butterflied as well.
Eh? What third reich? You mean the Second one under Georg Friedrich? We're talking about the event involving the Great Toxic Gyre of the Atlantic and NAZI bringing awareness of it. And ya, the only invasion in recent memory for most Brits was when the sea lions washed up on shore to die, namely from high mercury and other run-offs that got trapped in the Atlantic.
 
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