DBWI-UK Doesn't Buy USS Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1977

According to James Callaghan's memoirs, he actually wanted to buy an Essex-class carrier, since they were smaller and cheaper, but the Admiralty insisted on a Midway-class. Given how they had managed to get F-4s to operate on the Audacious class, one wonder why they couldn't get them to operate on the Essex class, seeing as how they had longer flight decks.
 

hipper

Banned
According to James Callaghan's memoirs, he actually wanted to buy an Essex-class carrier, since they were smaller and cheaper, but the Admiralty insisted on a Midway-class. Given how they had managed to get F-4s to operate on the Audacious class, one wonder why they couldn't get them to operate on the Essex class, seeing as how they had longer flight decks.
well the USN thought Phantoms too heavy to operate from Essex class carrires so they might have been right
Really it was the power of thecatapult that made it possible to operate heavier Jets

cheers Hipper
 
The Midway class could also operate the E-2 Hawkeye. A lot of people kept trying to give the Essex class carriers a new lease on life. Heck, even the Reagan administration talked about bringing USS Oriskany out of retirement. The problem is they were just too small and unless you wanted to base your air group around planes like the A-4 and F-8, what is the point?
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
Good for intimidating Third World countries. I mean, even with just A-4s and F-8s, an Essex still has more airpower than many developing countries.
 
Also it was the war that proved the AIM 7 Sparrow would work in a BVR environment (helps knowing that the only other planes in the area were almost 100% likely to be Argentinian) with the Sparrow accounting for over 65% of the Air to Air kills - and as good as the AIM 9 Sidewinder was the Harrier could only ever carry 2 and coupled with its short endurance you would need several Harriers to perform the same mission as a single Phantom II

Also I just thought - those 'Through Deck Cruisers' had no capability to operate AEW aircraft - OMG that coupled with relying on the Harrier would have been a disaster - the RN might actually have lost some ships and possibly the war!

I need to have a lye down

Good point, when you know that everything coming from a certain direction is hostile it really simplifies your ROEs. The RN's operations off the Falklands along with operations by the Israelis in the late 70s and early 80s more the proved the AIM-7's worth. Heck, even in Vietnam all five of Steve Ritchie's kills were with Sparrows. I read that he was tight with the weapons maintainers and they helped him hand select his missiles before every mission.
 
To be fair she was used hard - and the RN used her in the North sea and northern North Atlantic pretty much through the mid and late 80s - her job in a WW3 scenario was to surge north East along the Norway coast and survive long enough to launch a Bucc attack on the Kola Airbases and the subsequent delays to her eventual replacement did not allow for a much needed refit and left her in very poor condition when she eventually paid off.

No question about it, they worked her hard and she earned her keep. Even in the USN, Midway had trouble with flight ops in anything but the most benign sea states toward the end of her long career, in large part because all of the upgrades made her too top heavy.
 
No question about it, they worked her hard and she earned her keep. Even in the USN, Midway had trouble with flight ops in anything but the most benign sea states toward the end of her long career, in large part because all of the upgrades made her too top heavy.

Just goes to show that the USN was correct in pushing for new Build Nimitz class carriers rather than trying to keep the older ships in service for longer - much as I admire the RN keeping the Lusty going for so long, it and Midway's example did prove that it was a false economy.
 
Good for intimidating Third World countries. I mean, even with just A-4s and F-8s, an Essex still has more airpower than many developing countries.

Fun fact, the F-8s deployed by HMAS Darwin-formerly USS Bon Homme Richard-in Desert Storm actually achieved the same kill-to-loss ratio as the F-15.
 
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Ming777

Monthly Donor
Fun fact, the F-8s deployed by HMAS Darwin-formerly USS Bon Homme Richard-in Desert Storm actually achieved the same kill-to-loss ratio as the F-15.
Fixed it for you.

Of course, there was also alot of irony when Canada deployed CF-14s on MIGCAP to intercept Iraqi planes fleeing for Iran. I heard they even have a few stare-downs with Iranian MiGs, some of which were bought to replace those very ex-IRIAF Tomcats, now with the Maple Leaf roundel.
 
Well, then the Canadians decided to get the Forrestal herself after retiring the old HMCS Eagle (the predecessor to the current HMS Eagle)... It did help that having spent a decade with CF-18s and the CF-14 Tomcats purchased from Iran meant they already had planes designed for carriers. All that was needed was reinstalling the catapult-related gear.

I got a good look at HMCS Warrior when she came to visit Scapa Flow. Hard to believe she's been in service for six decades. The Canucks have done a good job of keeping her in shape.
 
I got a good look at HMCS Warrior when she came to visit Scapa Flow. Hard to believe she's been in service for six decades. The Canucks have done a good job of keeping her in shape.

In my view, it was a rather stupid decision for the Canadian government to purchase the Forrestal. If they hadn't, they probably would've had all eighteen planned Halifax-class frigates rather than just six of them. Supercarriers and their airwings are surprisingly expensive after all.
 
Ah, brainfart there. :oops:

Of course, the naval aspect of Desert Storm could be summed up as "The American and Commonwealth carriers gangbanging the Iraqi Air Force."

Which makes it less impressive, even more when you see the context. All but two of the F-8's ten victories were won by swooping down on a group of hapless runaways to Iran. Pure luck that they happened to be on the "low-priority" station, because who'd have thought that Iraq would send its air force to its recent enemy? For the other two, you have a helicopter late in the war and a "dogfight" where the Iraqi MiG-23 hit one plane in the flight with an AA-7 before it got to the merge and the wingman avenged it. I should also note that after the dogfight, the Crusaders were actually pulled back from the front lines for a week.

Meanwhile, the F-15s had thirty victories, were on the front lines throughout, and one of the three air to air losses was a Strike Eagle loaded with bombs.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
Then again we just got a good set of eight Province class* destroyers over the past decade. Sure they were built in Korea, but they are potent as heck. But actually they did order six more Halifax Class Frigates for the early 2000s. There's a reason we spend 2.5% of GDP on the military.

*The Province class are adapted King Sejong the Great DDGs
 
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Meanwhile, the F-15s had thirty victories, were on the front lines throughout, and one of the three air to air losses was a Strike Eagle loaded with bombs.

Bah, that was nothing compared to the total of 90 victories scored by the combined air wings of the American and Commonwealth carriers, including 10 scored when the Iraqis launched a futile attack on Lusty's battle group. And at least 20 of the F-15's victories were scored after the IAF gave up the fight and tried to flee to Iran, so there.
 
OOC: Would somebody care to explain why USS Franklin D. Roosevelt was in such a sorry condition by the 70s?

She was originally supposed to get the same level of upgrade but it was so expensive for MIDWAY and CS that she got a lesser refit, plus as the other poster said, her engines were cranky.
 
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