DBWI-Tirpitz not deployed on Operation Rheinübung

What would happen if the German battleship Tirpitz doesn't accompany her sister ship Bismarck on Operation Rheinübung?

IOTL, Admiral Lütjens was hesitant to take a brand-new ship with a green crew with him on the sortie, but Großadmiral Raeder insisted on having an additional capital ship for insurance, and the Scharnhorst twins were unavailable.
 
Well the mission could've started much earlier, Bismarck may have been able to escape unseen and into the Atlantic, strategic aftereffects though? Who knows?
 
Well the mission could've started much earlier, Bismarck may have been able to escape unseen and into the Atlantic, strategic aftereffects though? Who knows?
OOC: The line about the "brand-new ship" and "green crew" is supposed to imply the operation takes place at the same time as OTL.
 
What would happen if the German battleship Tirpitz doesn't accompany her sister ship Bismarck on Operation Rheinübung?

IOTL, Admiral Lütjens was hesitant to take a brand-new ship with a green crew with him on the sortie, but Großadmiral Raeder insisted on having an additional capital ship for insurance, and the Scharnhorst twins were unavailable.

I think had the Bismarck not been slowed down by Tirpitz then she might have been able to break out into the Atlantic and not have been engaged by the Home Fleet at all

As it was the number of systems issues that Tirpitz suffered before a single shot was fired eventually dooming all 3 ships.

Had Tirpitz not accompanied Bismarck and Prinz Eugen then the 'fleet' might not have been slowed down so much

I guess its easy to criticise Lütjens for not splitting up the 3 ships as soon as they were discovered in a vain attempt to save the Tirpitz - but the Tirpitz was their sister ship and its unlikely that they would not turn and come back for her.

The results of the subsequent battle are well known - despite heavy damage to some of the British ships - all 3 German Ships were badly damaged and this allowed subsequent British heavy Home fleet units as well as 2 TB Strikes from HMS Victorious to finish them off.

As Vice Admiral Holland said to his Captains after the battle "I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Bismarck was commanded today"

Now had Bismarck sortied on her own (with or without Prinz Eugen) then its possible that she might have achieved some sort of operational surprise and managed to break into the North Atlantic.

Whether she would have achieved anything of worth is open to debate and given the discrepancy of forces it is likely that she would have been hunted down or forced to run to France

I think in light of what happened it was a classic example of Germany putting all of their eggs into one basket

They would probably have served their cause better by keeping the ships as a 'fleet in being' i.e. threatening to sortie - this would have prevented the British from subsequently sending so many ships to the Med and later the far east - tying down many heavy units as part of the Home Fleet.

For example the British had lost several Cruisers covering the evacuation of Crete at this time - but with the loss of both German Battleships the RN were able to make good those losses in a matter of weeks from those forces no longer required in Britain.

I suspect that had one or both of these battleships have survived then the 4th and 5th KGV Battleships might have been given priority over the 2 Implacable Fleet carriers and done more than escort BPF carriers at the end of the war and Who knows maybe HMS Vanguard might have been completed.
 
Force Z might've been lost and Singapore would've been fucked ten ways from Sunday, watching over those bastards required one carrier and superior number of battleships, remember the debate over sending Victorious, the only available carrier while Scharnhorst and her sister lived? IT would've been impossible with either/or Bismarck, Tirpitz. and Prinz Eugen active. Imagine all those Japanese bombers having a clear run while the Buffalos were 100's of miles away:eek:.
 
Force Z might've been lost and Singapore would've been fucked ten ways from Sunday, watching over those bastards required one carrier and superior number of battleships, remember the debate over sending Victorious, the only available carrier while Scharnhorst and her sister lived? IT would've been impossible with either/or Bismarck, Tirpitz. and Prinz Eugen active. Imagine all those Japanese bombers having a clear run while the Buffalos were 100's of miles away:eek:.

Yes those Fulmar and 'Martlet' pilots certainly earned their pay that day - particularly one Lt Eric Brown of 802 Squadron who became "Ace in a day" by shooting down 6 Bombers (4 Nells and 2 Betties).
 
Speaking of the Tirpitz, remember that NOVA documentary about how the RAF was working on what they called an "earthquake" or "Grand Slam" bomb designed specifically to sink ships like Tirpitz and Bismarck? Once they were gone, the RAF considered scrapping the program but instead decided to turn it over to the U.S. War Department, which continued developing these super-bombs under the code name "the Brooklyn Project"(after the Brooklyn factory where the first prototype was built). Those bombs came in handy on D-Day, believe me. And who can forget how they almost single-handedly wiped out the cream of the Imperial Japanese Navy's battleship fleet at the Battle of Oahu?
 
Speaking of the Tirpitz, remember that NOVA documentary about how the RAF was working on what they called an "earthquake" or "Grand Slam" bomb designed specifically to sink ships like Tirpitz and Bismarck? Once they were gone, the RAF considered scrapping the program but instead decided to turn it over to the U.S. War Department, which continued developing these super-bombs under the code name "the Brooklyn Project"(after the Brooklyn factory where the first prototype was built). Those bombs came in handy on D-Day, believe me. And who can forget how they almost single-handedly wiped out the cream of the Imperial Japanese Navy's battleship fleet at the Battle of Oahu?
Um, it was the battle of Luzon where they were used on Yamato and Musashi leading to the most massive eruptions in history by conventional weapons. Your thinking of the book, The Fleet that never was, on this particular subject by that Turtleguy with the awkward sex scenes between Turing and Goddard (Dont ask)
 
Um, it was the battle of Luzon where they were used on Yamato and Musashi leading to the most massive eruptions in history by conventional weapons. Your thinking of the book, The Fleet that never was, on this particular subject by that Turtleguy with the awkward sex scenes between Turing and Goddard (Dont ask)

Actually only Yamato was sunk by air attack-Musashi had already been scuttled by her crew after being irreparably damaged in a running duel with the American battlefleet. Yamato was actually retreating from the battle when she was discovered and bombed by a B-29. And the bomber was only able to hit her because torpedo damage to her rudder from USS Fletcher had severely reduced her maneuverability.

From what I heard, only 19 of her crew survived.

The results of the subsequent battle are well known - despite heavy damage to some of the British ships - all 3 German Ships were badly damaged and this allowed subsequent British heavy Home fleet units as well as 2 TB Strikes from HMS Victorious to finish them off.

According to the The Mighty Hood by Ludovic Kennedy, when HMS Hood was undergoing repairs after the battle, an unexploded 15-inch shell from either Bismarck or Tirpitz was discovered in her aft magazine. Had the shell not been a dud, the consequences would've been dire for the ship and her crew.:eek: As her captain put it: "We were just one faulty fuse away from ending up like the battlecruisers at Jutland".
 
Actually only Yamato was sunk by air attack-Musashi had already been scuttled by her crew after being irreparably damaged in a running duel with the American battlefleet. Yamato was actually retreating from the battle when she was discovered and bombed by a B-29. And the bomber was only able to hit her because torpedo damage to her rudder from USS Fletcher had severely reduced her maneuverability.

From what I heard, only 19 of her crew survived.



According to the The Mighty Hood by Ludovic Kennedy, when HMS Hood was undergoing repairs after the battle, an unexploded 15-inch shell from either Bismarck or Tirpitz was discovered in her aft magazine. Had the shell not been a dud, the consequences would've been dire for the ship and her crew.:eek: As her captain put it: "We were just one faulty fuse away from ending up like the battlecruisers at Jutland".
Prince of Wales got lucky to strike the fatal blow on Eugen though, the faults she had!

Also the Japanese are going to be jubilant because of Hitler's cooperation if Tirpitz survives (Lets face it Bismarck wasn't coming home when she got out). It'll probably lead to ASB scenarios being written about Japan conquering Hawaii or something.
 
?What about Operation Neptune, the death ride of the German Fleet. Two battleships, Two Heavy Cruisers and a Pocket Battleship, escorted by 20 screens. Just unfortunate for the Germans they were all sunk near Calais before they even reached the Normandy beaches, as the German codes were cracked. Just lucky that the HMS Duke of York, HMS Anson, HMS Hood and HMS Warspite were there to teach them a lesson. After that was dealt with, the only real threat was the Admiral Scheer and two Light Cruisers , and Hood was quite capable of containing those, so all the other ships could go out to the pacific. I wonder if the Tirpitz would have joined Neptune?
 
?What about Operation Neptune, the death ride of the German Fleet. Two battleships, Two Heavy Cruisers and a Pocket Battleship, escorted by 20 screens. Just unfortunate for the Germans they were all sunk near Calais before they even reached the Normandy beaches, as the German codes were cracked. Just lucky that the HMS Duke of York, HMS Anson, HMS Hood and HMS Warspite were there to teach them a lesson. After that was dealt with, the only real threat was the Admiral Scheer and two Light Cruisers , and Hood was quite capable of containing those, so all the other ships could go out to the pacific. I wonder if the Tirpitz would have joined Neptune?
Operation Neptune wouldn't have existed without this version of Rheinburg, lets face it Hitler wanted payback and used materials to strengthen lucky Scharnhorst and her sister to Battleship status. Think of all the weapons that could've been produced instead. So we are lucky the fleet did such a marvelous job with Bismarck and Tirpitz to make Hitler do such an idiotic thing. Imagine more powerful U-boats, no serious German Aircraft carrier program wasting time. More trucks and half-tracks for Russia, earlier jet aircraft, more trains for undersirables, no the British navy did a marvelous job in making Hitler so pissed he had to return the favor one day. Sadly Graff Zeppelins capsizing in the storm didn't show much commitment.

However Neptune was a disaster from the get-go, it makes Ten-go look brilliant in comparison. (OOC: See what I did there?)
 
?What about Operation Neptune, the death ride of the German Fleet. Two battleships, Two Heavy Cruisers and a Pocket Battleship, escorted by 20 screens. Just unfortunate for the Germans they were all sunk near Calais before they even reached the Normandy beaches, as the German codes were cracked. Just lucky that the HMS Duke of York, HMS Anson, HMS Hood and HMS Warspite were there to teach them a lesson. After that was dealt with, the only real threat was the Admiral Scheer and two Light Cruisers , and Hood was quite capable of containing those, so all the other ships could go out to the pacific. I wonder if the Tirpitz would have joined Neptune?

From what I heard, the Royal Navy originally planned to stop Neptune with their carriers, however the battleship captains were insistent on being allowed to duke it out with Scharnhorst and friends. They were still sore at the Fleet Air Arm for denying them the chance to fight the Italian fleet at the Battle of the Tyrrhenian Sea in August 1943, where Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Roma, and their escorts were sunk by attacks from HMS Illustrious, HMS Formidable, HMS Victorious, and HMS Furious after being sent on a desperate sortie to stop the Allied invasion of Italy. From what I heard, the loss of so many Italian sailors in what was basically a pointless suicide mission prompted King Vittorio Emanuele III to order the arrest of Mussolini and the banning of the National Fascist Party.

However Neptune was a disaster from the get-go, it makes Ten-go look brilliant in comparison. (OOC: See what I did there?)

I actually read about Operation Ten-Go in The Last Ride of the Shinano, by Samuel Eliot Morison. Apparently, the US Navy sent carrier aircraft after Shinano and her escorts because they didn't want a repeat of the Battle of Luzon, where Yamato and Musashi inflicted heavy damage on the American battleships-worst of all USS South Dakota, which was deemed a total constructive loss and scuttled after the battle-before going down.
 
From what I heard, the Royal Navy originally planned to stop Neptune with their carriers, however the battleship captains were insistent on being allowed to duke it out with Scharnhorst and friends. They were still sore at the Fleet Air Arm for denying them the chance to fight the Italian fleet at the Battle of the Tyrrhenian Sea in August 1943, where Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Roma, and their escorts were sunk by attacks from HMS Illustrious, HMS Formidable, HMS Victorious, and HMS Furious after being sent on a desperate sortie to stop the Allied invasion of Italy. From what I heard, the loss of so many Italian sailors in what was basically a pointless suicide mission prompted King Vittorio Emanuele III to order the arrest of Mussolini and the banning of the National Fascist Party.

What carriers? HMS Furious and HMS Hermes was the only carriers in the area and they were mainly training carriers. The only one with the fleet was HMS Hermes, and she only had 15 torpedo bombers, which were held in reserve, along with the land based planes, though they did finish the Seyditiz off when she tried to get away.
 
What carriers? HMS Furious and HMS Hermes was the only carriers in the area and they were mainly training carriers. The only one with the fleet was HMS Hermes, and she only had 15 torpedo bombers, which were held in reserve, along with the land based planes, though they did finish the Seyditiz off when she tried to get away.

OOC: Since when was there an Italian warship named "Seyditiz"?
 
Actually this was the best of all worlds in this situation for the allies since the Soviets had to face less material on their front, the US could support the COmmonwealth fleet with their remaining carriers and hold the line until the Essex class came online, the British could send that fleet in the first place, Australia didnt have to waste money and resources on its beaches.

So Tirpitz surviving would be horrific.
 
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