DBWI: the Union wins at Gettysburg

As we all know, Gettysburg was the point in the War of Secession that led to the south winning.

WI the union won?
 
Well, in theory, I suppose...

Some might make the case that this would potentiate the unfortunate contemporary result at Vicksburg, and perhaps give the United States time enough to bring Grant to the Eastern Theatre, but not even that would be likely to alter the outcome. My apologies to our Northern friends, but unless the posited U States victory at Gettysburg were some sort of colossal Cannae, the worst scenario for the CS Army would be an orderly withdrawal into Maryland, still threatening the U States govt at Washington City. The idea that even a U States win at Gettysburg - I assume that the POD still keeps Meade in command? - could have sufficed to deny the Confederacy its eventual victory seems to me to stray perilously close to ASB territory. Perhaps the next phase would more realistically be a pitched battle at some site between, say, Silver Spring and Rockville?
 
Really, So what?

The Confederates lost almost as many men as the Union did; their offensive into Pennsylvania was stopped, and Lee essentially had another tactical victory at a time he needed a crushing strategy victory.

Lincoln had the guts to call Lee's withdrawal from Pennsylvania a victory in its own right and had a famous address there afterward.

The Union winning at Gettysburg, ultimately, is like the Union winning in the Peninsula campaign-it would make the war go faster with less loss of life, but the outcome is essentially known.

George Meade gets removed from command in favor of US Grant, he then kicks Lee around in 1864 before cleaning up the remainder. It helps that the Democrats can't be bothered to campaign competently in 1864--Vallandigham as Secretary of War for a Pro-War McClellan?

Lee is still running out of men; the Confederate States are cut in half, the Democrat opposition to the war is disjointed and unable to Campaign well. Lincoln won in OTL because his party tapped pro-war democrats for the election as a "Union" Party. Give the Union a victory instead of a tactical defeat at Gettysburg and Lincoln wins more handedly.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Well, although the Confederate victory at Gettysburg was very important from a military point of view (inflicting a severe defeat upon the Union Army and keeping the war out of Virginia for many months), the main benefit to the Confederacy was diplomatic.

Without the victory at Gettysburg, I highly doubt that the Roebuck Resolution recognizing the Confederacy as an independent nation would have passed the House of Commons. Obviously, then, we would not have had the mediation of the conflict by the British, and the signing of the treaty of peace on December 31, 1863.

Honestly, if the Union had won at Gettysburg, I cannot see the Confederates winning independence.
 
Really, So what?

The Confederates lost almost as many men as the Union did; their offensive into Pennsylvania was stopped, and Lee essentially had another tactical victory at a time he needed a crushing strategy victory.

Lincoln had the guts to call Lee's withdrawal from Pennsylvania a victory in its own right and had a famous address there afterward.

The Union winning at Gettysburg, ultimately, is like the Union winning in the Peninsula campaign-it would make the war go faster with less loss of life, but the outcome is essentially known.

George Meade gets removed from command in favor of US Grant, he then kicks Lee around in 1864 before cleaning up the remainder. It helps that the Democrats can't be bothered to campaign competently in 1864--Vallandigham as Secretary of War for a Pro-War McClellan?

Lee is still running out of men; the Confederate States are cut in half, the Democrat opposition to the war is disjointed and unable to Campaign well. Lincoln won in OTL because his party tapped pro-war democrats for the election as a "Union" Party. Give the Union a victory instead of a tactical defeat at Gettysburg and Lincoln wins more handedly.

OOC: Did you read the OP? You have a lot of problems understanding DBWI's, don't you? :eek:
 
He was merely trying to breath some new life into a very old, very tired What If?...

OOC: You must have problems understanding a DBWI too.

On a DBWI, you start with what the OP stated, assume it is correct, and then run with it. You don't "rewrite" the OP to suit yourself by writing from the exact opposite standpoint. The OP says the Confederacy won the war after winning Gettysburg. Therefore, Max's post, which is stating the Union won the war anyway, despite losing Gettysburg, is an attempt to "rewrite the OP" because he doesn't like it. That's not how DBWI's work.

Now, a timeline where the Union loses Gettysburg and still wins the war might be very interesting, if Max wants to write it. But it belongs in a separate thread, not here. :cool:
 
Well, although the Confederate victory at Gettysburg was very important from a military point of view (inflicting a severe defeat upon the Union Army and keeping the war out of Virginia for many months), the main benefit to the Confederacy was diplomatic.

Without the victory at Gettysburg, I highly doubt that the Roebuck Resolution recognizing the Confederacy as an independent nation would have passed the House of Commons. Obviously, then, we would not have had the mediation of the conflict by the British, and the signing of the treaty of peace on December 31, 1863.

Honestly, if the Union had won at Gettysburg, I cannot see the Confederates winning independence.

You're probably right about that. Although, remember, defeat at Gettysburg could have taken many forms. It need not have been a massive Union victory. In another scenario...say Lee attempts to take Cemetery and Culp's Hill on July 1, is bloodily repulsed, and then retires to fight at another location...Gettysburg could have gone down as a mere prelude to the decisive action to come.

And remember, even the defeat at Gettysburg was not enough to convince the Lincoln Administration to immediately accept the mediation. It was only when General Grant and the Union Army of the Tennessee were brought east to face Lee in the aftermath of Gettysburg, fell into Lee's brilliant trap outside Frederick, Maryland on October 2, and were destroyed, that Lincoln finally agreed to British mediation.

So the effects of the Union defeat at Gettysburg, while important, I think are a bit over-rated in their importance to the overall outcome.
 
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