DBWI the U.S. Navy wasn't sold off in 1785?

bard32

Banned
DBWI the U.S. Navy wasn't sold off in 1785? A little background. In August of
1785, the Continental Congress, which later became the U.S. Congress, sold off the last ship of the Continental Navy, the frigate Alliance, which sailed off into mystery. IOTL, the United States, after the American Revolution,
was flat broke. IATL, could it have emerged from the American Revolution on
a solid economic footing and seven, not six, frigates, nine years later?
 
What would be the point? The young US would still be tied closely to Britain for trading and commerce, the Royal Navy would still be the force to keep the trade lanes open, and a single ship won't keep the US navy from being near routed in the Proxy War with France and from stopping the Anglo-American Atlantic Doctrine from making the two allies in keeping the Americas off-limits to European colonial powers.

And there are a number of things that could be worse if the US decided not to sell off various ships. Not paying indemnities to loyalists who had property seized or destroyed in the Revolution would have been one way to have a lot more money immediately, but then later treaty compromises might not have worked out in America's favor.
 

bard32

Banned
What would be the point? The young US would still be tied closely to Britain for trading and commerce, the Royal Navy would still be the force to keep the trade lanes open, and a single ship won't keep the US navy from being near routed in the Proxy War with France and from stopping the Anglo-American Atlantic Doctrine from making the two allies in keeping the Americas off-limits to European colonial powers.

And there are a number of things that could be worse if the US decided not to sell off various ships. Not paying indemnities to loyalists who had property seized or destroyed in the Revolution would have been one way to have a lot more money immediately, but then later treaty compromises might not have worked out in America's favor.

According to C.S. Forester, who wrote the Horatio Hornblower series, and several nonfiction books, including one my father gave me over thirty years ago, called The Barbary Pirates, Thomas Jefferson first proposed the idea of an alliance of small states against the Barbary Pirates. IOTL, when he was confronted by Portugal, with the question: "And how many ships will
the United States contribute, Mr. Jefferson?" Jefferson had to reply with "None." IATL, if Jefferson had been confronted by Portugal with the same question, he could have answered it differently.
 
You forgot the very important second line of Jefferson's, though. "But we will pay the fair share of all free nations who wish to sail the sea."

While some critics condemn Jefferson for effectively paying the equivalent of a ship and a half to the Portugal navy, they tend to overlook that such an early investment paid dividends when Portugal supported the US's entrance into the neutral-alliance during the Napoleonic Wars, which was a much cheaper way to defend American shipping than the size of a navy necessary to defend against French and British impressors would have had to have been.
 

bard32

Banned
You forgot the very important second line of Jefferson's, though. "But we will pay the fair share of all free nations who wish to sail the sea."

While some critics condemn Jefferson for effectively paying the equivalent of a ship and a half to the Portugal navy, they tend to overlook that such an early investment paid dividends when Portugal supported the US's entrance into the neutral-alliance during the Napoleonic Wars, which was a much cheaper way to defend American shipping than the size of a navy necessary to defend against French and British impressors would have had to have been.

You're right. I did. My bad. That's right. The British had a tendency to impress
American seamen on the high seas. That was considered legal at the time because all the British had to do was replace the two impressed seamen with
malcontents. The most famous, or infamous, incident of that was the Chesapeake-Leopard Affair, in which seamen from the the USS Chesapeake,
were removed from the ship by crewmen of the HMS Leopard and sentenced
to 500 lashes.
 
That's a wide exaggeration of what was an uncommon practice even at the time. Not only because of historically good Anglo-American relations, but also because of the neutrality alliance that the US was a part of.

Britain forced itself to follow increasingly stringent confirmation procedures after Leopard Affair, and even paid minor reparations in order to diffuse the incident with the rest of the neutral European countries. That was the roots of "No sir, that's not my name," the slogan of draft dodging in Britain's war against the Pakistan insurgency in the 1970's.
 

bard32

Banned
That's a wide exaggeration of what was an uncommon practice even at the time. Not only because of historically good Anglo-American relations, but also because of the neutrality alliance that the US was a part of.

Britain forced itself to follow increasingly stringent confirmation procedures after Leopard Affair, and even paid minor reparations in order to diffuse the incident with the rest of the neutral European countries. That was the roots of "No sir, that's not my name," the slogan of draft dodging in Britain's war against the Pakistan insurgency in the 1970's.

I read it somewhere. True, it was an uncommon practice in time of peace, but
in time of war, Britain would have what was called a "hot press" in which the
Royal Navy was free to press from all protections. The British also thought that our orders of protection were forgeries. Also, the requirements for impressment were so broad and vague. They were "anybody who had a knowledge of the sea." Fishermen and merchant seamen I could see as prime candidates for impressment. But a wigmaker? It might have happened
but I can't see it. If we were in Britain back in the period between 1790-1800, our best chance of escaping the press gang was to be part of it.
 
POD The US negotiates a favorable trade treaty with Britain(in exchange for a neutrality agreement)during the Paris Peace conference in 1783. So this enables the US to recover economically and sustain a single ship navy. But it may also preserve a cabinet level naval office in the confederation and into Washington's administration. Meaning the evolution of the US Navy begins earlier.
 
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