DBWI: The Turtledove TL-191 Discussion Thread.

Apropos: Did any of you know there actually was an "Adolf Hitler" in the German Army? He did get the Iron Cross, 1st and 2nd Class in the war. It's a little spooky... did HT base his guy on a real person? And won't this Hitler's descendants sue him when they find out?

Apparently, Adolf Hitler was based off of a real person (at least)... General Morrell mentions meeting Heinz Guderian in Kamloops, British Columbia, in the 1920s (forget exactly when) in his autobiography. Apparently, Guderian's aide was a very racist anti-Semitic seargent who almost got into a fight with one of Morrell's Jewish soldiers. Morrell specifically compares this seargent to Jake Featherston in the text.

He's only mentioned for a couple of sentences, but you still get a chill up your spine when reading it nowadays, especially since TL-191 has run its course.
 
Obviously you didn't read the sections where it is very graphically described the suffering Slavs and Poles suffered under the Germans. Hitler hated everyone, the Jews most of all.
I meant that the hatred for Jews wasn't as, how to put it, plausible, as the hatred for Poles.
Why go after the one of the most well-integrated, contributing, loyal groups within your state?
But yes, I know about Hitler's hatred for everyone.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I meant that the hatred for Jews wasn't as, how to put it, plausible, as the hatred for Poles.
Why go after the one of the most well-integrated, contributing, loyal groups within your state?
But yes, I know about Hitler's hatred for everyone.
In OTL, this Hitler fellow went on to further himself in the army, I believe. I think he reached the rank of Field Marshal, but I'm not entirely sure.
 
I liked th idea for an independant Canada, well gotta got the Yanks have found, LONG LIVE CANADA! (OOC: If it's TL-191 world we're in then I would of course been a resitance member)
 
Communist Russia? lol. as if that would ever hapen :rolleyes:
Actually, there was a rather ferocious Red insurgency in Russia immediately after the First Great War, and the Russians were holding them off by the skin of their teeth for awhile. But Roosevelt wasn't fond of socialists as a whole, and the Germans didn't want them either, so Russia itself received quite aid in defeating them. I've always wondered what would have happened had a socialist administration shipped them serious aid in hopes of establishing a second socialist republic in the world, one that would (presumably) be friendly with the US.
 
Sergeant Hitler didn't have any direct descendants although his sister may have left some. He was awarded the Iron Cross with Swords posthumously for his heroism during the final offensive which broke France in 1916. Ironically he had only returned with Guderain's mission to the United States three months earlier.

I think Nietzsche has him confused with Field Marshal Halder.
 
Sergeant Hitler didn't have any direct descendants although his sister may have left some. He was awarded the Iron Cross with Swords posthumously for his heroism during the final offensive which broke France in 1916. Ironically he had only returned with Guderain's mission to the United States three months earlier.

I think Nietzsche has him confused with Field Marshal Halder.

ooc: Uh, Grimm? In TL-191, Morrel saw Hitler during the inter-war period, not during the war. It was while Morrel was in exile/disgrace as a garrison commander in Canada.
 

~The Doctor~

but they took puerto rico and a couple of other islands

And Puerto Rico's is nearing 51st statehood. What's your point?

'Sides, they didn't annex Cuba, but it was a puppet for decades. It's not as if the US needed the land.
 
As usual the sex scenes were unnecessary but the sick stuff the National Socialists commits on all the people they hated really left me a bit disturbed. 12 million people tortured, killed, experimented on. I couldn't read the book for weeks after that. I mean the worst the Freedom party did was simply kill their victims, not go that extreme.
 
I am a sucker for AH about the Great Wars in Europe, so I enjoyed this series quite a bit. Turtledove may not have the greatest handle on prose, but every once and a while something golden shines through.

That being said, the element that almost broke the story for me was his portrayal of the United States. It seems as if in this timeline, all the Confederates, blacks, and Mormons are just northern Americans with silly accents and tans. After the Confederacy goes down, it’s as if the entire South was wiped off the map, never to emerge again. The worst part is that the post-ACW occupation of the South seems to be a mixture of incompetence, grand larceny, and soiled idealism, and yet nothing happens. No rebellion, no wide-scale terrorist campaign beyond those guys in nightshirts, not even an angry revanchist novel by a cranky college professor. I know all AH is wish fulfillment on some level, but to throw out a century of American ethnic strife is pushing it.

As for the Nasis (sp?), I didn’t find them quite as improbable as everyone else here believes them to be. Right now I’ve been looking into some new studies on nationalism in pre-GW Europe for a paper, and the one thing that keeps coming up again and again is the need to “cleanse” and “purify” the nation, and in a lot of the French and Eastern European material the Jews keep reappearing as the source of the “contagion.” Seriously, this stuff will freak you right out. There’s actually quite a few German writers dealing with this material, and I would go so far as to say that this type of anti-Semitism was a part of the daily lexicon, if only in a supplementary role. Of course, I have to agree that Hitler’s rise to power parallels Featherstone’s too closely to really be plausible, but it’s pretty obvious that Turtledove wasn’t talking out of his ass here.

With the whole “commie Russia” thing, I think that Turtledove played a giant prank on all of us. In my opinion, the Soviet Union was about as “communist” as the German Reich. Once you look closely at it, the Union was nothing more that a caricatured tsarist state. We’ve got Stalin as the supreme leader with a personality cult, a massive state-run crash industrialization program, an agriculture reform program that recreates the peasant commune, and a assault on “wreckers” that resembles nothing so much as a giant pan-ethnic pogrom and makes about as much sense. There’s literally nothing that Stalin did or built in Men of Iron that Alexander III didn’t do in the 1880s or that Vasily Dyachenko didn’t built in the 1960s. The creepiest thing for me was the impression that, despite the industrialization, trials and war, life in Stalin’s Russia is actually a heck of a lot better than it was in our Russia in the late 1940s.

Finally, I know most of you are groaning about this, but I’m actually interested in seeing if Turtledove does anything with the post-war world. This idea of a capitalism-vs-communism conflict could bring an entirely new spin on international relations. I mean, in OTL we had the Americans and Germans staring at one another for five decades, but at the end of the day there was a lot they could both agree on. Imagine how gut-wrenching it would have been if, instead of just two military and economic powers squaring off, we had two wholly different ideological systems in mental conflict, each convinced that their system represents the end of history and will, nay must, emerge victorious over all things forever. Given how Turtledove has set up atomic weapons in his timeline to be these strange mystical devices of unfathomable power and annihilation, you could actually have these ideological wars spill over into the realm of state policy, as the ultimate weapon is used to defend and advance the ultimate ideal. Heck, if he doesn’t write this, I just might give it a shot. (Of course, in my version, I’d keep discourse criticism from being invented. It’s annoying enough in OTL as it is.)

Anyway, I’d like to close by mentioning my favorite scene. I know most of you love the Normandy sequence, but his Dresden scene is just horrifically wondrous, and I’d go so far as to say it’s one of the best things he’s ever written. I’m still not sure whether that Vonnegut (sp again?) guy Rob Jacobs meets is the most asinine character in alternate history, or the most tragic.
 
I'd like to see what happens post war as well, because I feel that there are a lot of unresolved issues.

I want to know the following:

What happens with Japan? The US Superbomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, forcing Japan to Surrender and ending the war. But it'd be interesting to see how the Japanese react post-war. I wonder if there would have been something resembling the Canadian rebellions during OTL's inter-war years.

But the situation in Europe looks far from clear. Turtledove portrays some obvious strains between the US and Britain on one side and the Soviet Union on the other. Poland in particular is a big wrangling point, as is the post war plans for Germany. It's clear that both the US/UK and the Soviets want Europe - or at least large parts of it as their spheres of influence. Does it lead to war, or do they sort it somehow, because right now it looks messy and unclear.

I'm very interested to see what becomes of Germany. Do the Germans rebel, or are they pleased (or simply relieved) to be shot of the Nazis? I also wonder if Germany becomes something of an economic powerhouse.

The reason, I say so is because if you look at us British in OTL. Defeated during the Second Great War, but we made a hell of a recovery, whilst Germany used everything they had and ended the war bankrupt. Look at their industry. They used to have a fine Motor industry and now look at it! Loads of famous old German marques have vanished, and the rest are either owned by British and American car brands, Even VW ended up going out of business a few years ago. It looks like Turtledove has Britain bankrupt and facing economic problems in TL-191, so I wonder if Germany will 'do a Britain'.
 
Enough with the Turtledove-bashing. Yes, his stories tend to mirror real life a little too much, but it's kind of refreshing to see a new spin on things.
Europe tends to lapse into antisemitism during bad times--there's enough historical evidence of it happening in the past. Jews have been used as scapegoats for European problems before--it makes sense for Turtledove's "Nazi" Germany to go the same way.
I wish he'd continue the series--I'm kind of curious as to how things work out in the Middle East. A new state of Israel? Could be interesting.
And this "Cold War" situation Turtledove's cooked up between America and the Soviet Union sounds fascinating. Maybe it's commiewank, but still.
 
I found the Battle of Kursk interesting. The Barrel Brawl(called a Tank Battle in the books) there was so big that it eclipsed the biggest Barrel Brawl in OTL, during the Anglo-French drive towards the Rhine.

Although, because Turtledove has to use an analogy, he makes the stand of the 101st in The Grapple during the Battle of the Bulge take place in Bastogne! The same area that the aforementioned Barrel Brawl took place at!
 
You'll know from my earlier posts I'm no big admirer of HT (though I still read the books...), but one thing is quite intriguing: the way he uses all the small European states. First take Poland, then fight France - an entirely new front! And the wild ideas in the Balkans were also somewhat fanciful. To say nothing of the idea that instead of merely being idiots, the Socialists actively collaborated with Hitler (and only afterwards went on to merely being idiots, that is).

All in all, a far cry from Featherston's simple surprise attack (though of course the invasion of Socialist Russia has to take place on the same date as the CSA's Drive to the North...).
 
That being said, the element that almost broke the story for me was his portrayal of the United States. It seems as if in this timeline, all the Confederates, blacks, and Mormons are just northern Americans with silly accents and tans. After the Confederacy goes down, it’s as if the entire South was wiped off the map, never to emerge again. The worst part is that the post-ACW occupation of the South seems to be a mixture of incompetence, grand larceny, and soiled idealism, and yet nothing happens. No rebellion, no wide-scale terrorist campaign beyond those guys in nightshirts, not even an angry revanchist novel by a cranky college professor. I know all AH is wish fulfillment on some level, but to throw out a century of American ethnic strife is pushing it.


With the whole “commie Russia” thing, I think that Turtledove played a giant prank on all of us. In my opinion, the Soviet Union was about as “communist” as the German Reich. Once you look closely at it, the Union was nothing more that a caricatured tsarist state. We’ve got Stalin as the supreme leader with a personality cult, a massive state-run crash industrialization program, an agriculture reform program that recreates the peasant commune, and a assault on “wreckers” that resembles nothing so much as a giant pan-ethnic pogrom and makes about as much sense. There’s literally nothing that Stalin did or built in Men of Iron that Alexander III didn’t do in the 1880s or that Vasily Dyachenko didn’t built in the 1960s. The creepiest thing for me was the impression that, despite the industrialization, trials and war, life in Stalin’s Russia is actually a heck of a lot better than it was in our Russia in the late 1940s.

Since in Turtledove's timeline the Confederacy hadn't been an independent nation for several decades the former Confederates had an easier time of becoming Americans again. As for Stalin, I fail to see how his collectivization effort can be compared to an ethnic progrom. Stalin had many Jews in his government such as Kaganovich and LItvinov and the collectivation was supposed to be an attempt to modernize agriculture and thereby increase food production for the cities.
 
Hey lets not forget how HT dismantles the entire Austro-Hungarian Empire after the First Great War in Timeline 191-.... that in itself is a big part of the European map redrawn, especially after Germany takes over Austria in 1938!
 
Sergeant Hitler didn't have any direct descendants although his sister may have left some. He was awarded the Iron Cross with Swords posthumously for his heroism during the final offensive which broke France in 1916. Ironically he had only returned with Guderain's mission to the United States three months earlier.

I think Nietzsche has him confused with Field Marshal Halder.

ooc: Hitler actually visits Morrell in the Centre Cannot Hold at around 1925, at the very least before the Great Depression, but after the First World War.

Okay Having said this: A Corporal reaching the rank of Field Marshall is very unlikley although there was a Field Marshall Halder. A common misconception. Adolf Hitler left the German Imperial army in late 1932 and became a neo-gothic artist before his death from Parkinson's disease in 1950.
 
Okay, here are the points I liked about the series:
Turtledove's use of historical figures was pretty amusing. This was most evident in "How Few Remain" were they were the POV characters, but really, who else could have come up with something so ahistorical as making Lincoln, Lincoln of all people, a beloved martyr with a monument in Washington. Some of the POVs were amusing to watch - Teddy Roosevelt charging up San Juan Hill, Ophelia Clemens' father as a famous novelist, perennial Republican candidate William Jennings Bryan as the Democratic presidential candidate. Some of the later books had this as well, mainly his habit of killing off future leaders like Admiral Carsten in that Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, or President Kennedy's death in that plane explosion, but 'How Few Remain" did it best.

Some of the parts I didn't like were the repition. "How Few Remain's" naval scenes seemed to consist of the sailors saying nothing but "We need a canal," and every third chapter of every book, some one felt the need to remind the reader of just why the United States bought Alaska. Seward had too much money, everyone laughed at him, we get it! Also, there were quite a few plot holes. Why was it necessary for those aforementioned naval scenes to be in the book when the only point was for the sailors to miss the entire war with Spain? Why was Woodrow Wilson president of the United States only a half century after the War of Secession? Why did Republican Mexico go to war with itself every other book. Why did an unimaginably isolationist US take the Philipines from Spain?

Also, the books in the "World War" and "American Hegemony" series tended to drag since nothing ever happened. Did Turtledove forget there was a war going on in the "World War" trilogy? Why was the focus entirely on the US?

Well, thats enough ranting for today.
 
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