DBWI: The Turtledove TL-191 Discussion Thread.

Well, he is a Transylvanian refugee(His real name's Heinrich Turtletaub or something to that effect, he only changed it when he move here in the Seventies), so I don't think he has much love for the Austrians to begin with.

Oh, so he's a Carpathian German ?! :cool: That explains it then ! ;)

If you think about it a bit deeper, Austria-Hungary has produced a surprising amount of alternate history authors. Must be something in the water... :p :rolleyes:

I mean : Just look at S. M. Stirling, the Brit who wrote that series... whatsitcalled... ah... The Red Dragon Empire ! Yeah, the one where he does a ridiculously implausible wank of disgruntled Welsh exiles in South America (specifically, in Patagonia). He turns them into an absurdly brutal, competent and technologically ahead-of-the-times superpower, with a massive superiority complex and an ideology quite similar to that of the Freedom Party and the Silver Shirts. And in the end the Red Dragon Empire (Coch Draig Ymerodraeth) conquers the world and enslaves the entire human race. :p Yeah, it's as cheesy as it sounds, yet somewhat mildly entertaining ! :D

But to the point about S. M. Stirling... He's actually a Banát-born ethnic Hungarian, who emigrated with his parents to Britain in the 1960s, when he was still a kid. Steve's birth name is actually István Miklós Szabó. Unsurprisingly, when his parents moved to the UK, they anglicinized their names, except for the surname. "Stirling" is just Steve's pen name. ;) Bet you would never tell he's not English-born (with his distinct Sommerset accent and all).
 
The Australians v. Ottomans isn't crazy, it happened IOTL. Gallipoli was a complete disaster, obviously, but it was the first time we'd fought as a unified nation (barring the last few years of the Boer War). After that we were sent to the Western Front, but I suppose if there were more troops available we would have taken part in the Palestine campaign.

Honestly, I never heard about those plans. Thanks for educating me about a forgotten chapter of the Great War ! The more you know...
 
Oh, so he's a Carpathian German ?! :cool: That explains it then ! ;)

If you think about it a bit deeper, Austria-Hungary has produced a surprising amount of alternate history authors. Must be something in the water... :p :rolleyes:

I mean : Just look at S. M. Stirling, the Brit who wrote that series... whatsitcalled... ah... The Red Dragon Empire ! Yeah, the one where he does a ridiculously implausible wank of disgruntled Welsh exiles in South America (specifically, in Patagonia). He turns them into an absurdly brutal, competent and technologically ahead-of-the-times superpower, with a massive superiority complex and an ideology quite similar to that of the Freedom Party and the Silver Shirts. And in the end the Red Dragon Empire (Coch Draig Ymerodraeth) conquers the world and enslaves the entire human race. :p Yeah, it's as cheesy as it sounds, yet somewhat mildly entertaining ! :D

But to the point about S. M. Stirling... He's actually a Banát-born ethnic Hungarian, who emigrated with his parents to Britain in the 1960s, when he was still a kid. Steve's birth name is actually István Miklós Szabó. Unsurprisingly, when his parents moved to the UK, they anglicinized their names, except for the surname. "Stirling" is just Steve's pen name. ;) Bet you would never tell he's not English-born (with his distinct Sommerset accent and all).

Ashkenazi Jew, actually - which probably explains why they were the big victims in his books.

Actually, a lot of books could be classfied more as fantsay than true alternate history - "Guns of the North" depends on time-traveling Russian Bolsheviks who give the Union AK-47s and make Grant president, "A Different Flesh" is about Homo Erectus in America, etc.
 

Okillos

Banned
Well there's In The Presence of Mine Enemies also by Turtledove about a Confederate wank with it occupying all of the US and about an octoroon family in Richmond.
 
Personally, I found his portrayal of the German Military somewhat... bi-polar, I guess?

On one hand, in the books ranging from '39 to '41 they're portrayed as the world's most effective fighting machine, with the best equipment, training, tactics, etc. to the point where it gets near-mythical; within the span of two years, they engage three of the world's greatest powers - Britain, France, and (Soviet) Russia - crush one of them (France) along with a number of smaller powers (Poland, Norway, etc) in record time and bring the other two to the brink of collapse (Russia), or throwing the towel (Britain).
In '42, this peters out, and from '43 onwards they're suddenly almost completely inept; near-constantly on the retreat and plagued with countless problems that - somehow - never showed up earlier. He does a reasonable job justifying it with logical arguments - Partisans and Guerrillas, resource-shortages, etc - for the most part, but others are just plain crazy; such as rushing half-designed/tested barrels into combat without clearing its design-flaws, or throwing resources out of the window with senseless "Wunderwaffen"-projects like those super-heavy barrels ("Maus" or "Ratte", iirc).
It's like he had so much fun writing about the bad guys (the "Nazis") winning that he almost forgot that they'd actually have to lose at some point, too, and then quickly had to have them change gears so the "good" guys could still win in the end.

The reason, I say so is because if you look at us British in OTL. Defeated during the Second Great War, but we made a hell of a recovery, whilst Germany used everything they had and ended the war bankrupt. Look at their industry. They used to have a fine Motor industry and now look at it! Loads of famous old German marques have vanished, and the rest are either owned by British and American car brands, Even VW ended up going out of business a few years ago. It looks like Turtledove has Britain bankrupt and facing economic problems in TL-191, so I wonder if Germany will 'do a Britain'.
Alright, it's probably a bit late for me to comment on, given that the post is almost two years old, but last time I checked Germany was one of the world's largest economies, and, though a big step behind the USA (not surprising, given that they've got pretty much an entire continent to work with), still a good deal before Britain, France, or Russia, and actually had a large number of British or French companies (such as Peugeot, Rolls-Royce or Vickers) owned by German ones; spoils of war, and all that.
Perhaps you're mixing it up with the recent buyout of several north German wharfs by British naval construction firms? Because, as much as my national pride stings to admit it, that's one of the (very few :p) areas the British are a good deal better than us Germans.
Though, to give credit where it's due, Britain's post-war recovery was damn-near miraculous, even taking into account the economic aid from Germany and the US to assure its help as a counter-balance against the Japanese Empire and its navy. And especially taking into consideration that the country's capital got nuked less than a decade earlier. I can hardly imagine the impact such an event must've had on the collective British psyche at that time.

It's certainly a stark contrast to the Japanese who kept throwing their money out of the window for their bloated military, to keep the unrest in the various territories of their empire under control. Though I heard their situation has improved a bit since they don't have to keep such a large military machine anymore.

- Kelenas
 
@Kelenas: My family's British and you're right about the impact that the SGW had on Britain's collective pysche. The first war was traumatic, but in the lead-up to the SGW Britain-along with France-had managed to convince themselves that that was just a fluke and the SGW would see the return of the Empire. The recovery was miraculous-world leader in electronics and video games anyone?-but to the pre-SGW generations, nothing could replace the Empire, nor did it matter how prompt the rebuilding of London was and how spectacular-not to mention environmentally friendly-some of the buildings are.

Anyhow, it was my last day working at Oprah's Books today (not a bad job as I'm a book nerd, but not a great company to work for, and I never agreed with her decision to pull Over Open Sights from the shelves...whatever happened to freedom of speech?) so I decided to use my employee discount one last time and pick up the entire series. I'm intrigued by some of the ideas; the whole "independent Canada" thing especially. I know we were a more or less independent Dominion almost a century ago, but we're so used to the status quo that it's strange to think of anything different, especially considering that British Columbia, where I live, is a shoo-in for statehood after the success of the Vancouver Olympics. Hell, most of the American gold medal hockey team were Canadian!
 
Just look at S. M. Stirling, the Brit who wrote that series... whatsitcalled... ah... The Red Dragon Empire ! Yeah, the one where he does a ridiculously implausible wank of disgruntled Welsh exiles in South America (specifically, in Patagonia). He turns them into an absurdly brutal, competent and technologically ahead-of-the-times superpower, with a massive superiority complex and an ideology quite similar to that of the Freedom Party and the Silver Shirts. And in the end the Red Dragon Empire (Coch Draig Ymerodraeth) conquers the world and enslaves the entire human race. :p Yeah, it's as cheesy as it sounds, yet somewhat mildly entertaining ! :D
I know! It's completely ASB on various grounds. Yes, there's a strong Welsh presence there - as in around 25,000. It's a wasteland, get it! The technology is absurd and varies from time to time - the alternate Great War is fought with much the same tech as OTL, while the War of Seccession is a mixture of First and Second Great War tech. And worst of all is the fact that it spreads horribly offensive attitudes about us Cymry in america as slave-trading warmongers - when in fact, for instance, most Welsh colonists in the Americas were pacifist Quakers who opposed slavery! While that's not what the average Welshman was at the time, it was a fair-sized minority that wasn't very out of step with the majority! Even the English caricature of beer swilling excellent singers who play rugby is less inaccurate and offensive!
 

JoeMulk

Banned
bump

One interesting tidbit in the series was how HT took Baseball, a sport with only regional popularity in New York and New England and had it become the national pastime in this timeline just as a butterfly of the War of Secession lasting longer.
 
OK, long time no see by the way, I have the characters for OTL TL-191.
I might start writing it. I've taken some people's comments as ideas.

The characters are a mix of tl-191 characters, real people, new characters based on tl-191 characters and entirely new characters altogether.

Rainer Brandt is a German who is based on Reggie Bartlett.
Fighting on the Western Front, Brandt is first captured by the British and then after escaping and returning to duties is injured and treated alongside Black American soldiers. After the war Brandt becomes actively anti-Nazi. He is later killed by Nazi thugs.

Sam Carson is Sam Carsten. A slight name change as he is now British and his story changes to fit those circumstances but it remains very similar.

Cincinnatus left Kentucky before WWI with his family. He's still a Driver (and has the same surname, albeit from the start of the series. Living in New York, Cincinnatus joins a Black batallion nicknamed The Harlem Hell Fighters when the US joins WWI in 1917. After the war Cincinnatus becomes involved in early civil rights movements in Harlem alongside Marcus Garvey.

George and Sylvia Enos are now George and Sylvia Arnison from North Shields in England. Their stories are similar. George is killed by a German U-boat after the armistice whilst Sylvia struggles to bring up their two young children and avenge his death.

Adolf Hitler in place of Jake Featherston.

Ellen Wilkinson, a real British politician. Labour MP for first Middlesbrough and later Jarrow, she marched with workers to London on the Jarrow crusade. Involved personally with two senior Labour MPs. Her story doesn't match Flora Hamburger's but in spirit I think 'Red Ellen' is a suitable replacement.

Rudolf Krause is Roger Kimball. He has an affair with an inffluential women, but she is not a main character.

Charlie Martin is Chester Martin again Charlie is more English than Chester.

Erwin Rommel in place of Irving Morrel although their stories and fortunes differ.

Jonathon Moss becomes a British pilot although his inter war story changes quite a bit. During WWI his main bugbear is fellow pilot, the womanising showoff Lord Flashart and his irritating 'WOOOOFFF!' call of conquest.

Nancy Simon (later Janvier) is Nellie Semphroch. Nellie and her daughter Edith run a Cafe in Lille. Nancy has something of a dark past but finds love with a neighbour, Widower Henri Janvier who is spying on the occupying Germans.

Winston Churchill. A controversial character due to His story in TL-191 where he co-led a Fascist Britain. Of course in OTL TL-191 he is revered as a bastion of democracy which many in TL-191 will be uncomfortable with.

Otto Frank, a German Jew who serves in the German Army during WWI and then runs the family business in Hamburg. Frank leaves Germany in 1933 after the Nazis come to power and he takes his family to live in Amsterdam. However they are trapped in Holland when the Germans invade in 1940 and spend years evading the Nazis by hiding in an attic.

Arthur McGregor, a Canadian farmer and immensely patriotic, McGregor joins the Canadian Army and serves at Vimy Ridge. After the war he returns to his family in Manitobs, but his son Alexander joins up and is an officer during WWII where he escapes from Dieppe and is involved during D-Day.

Rudolf Hoss and Joachim Probst are both Jefferson Pinkard. Hoss the commandant whilst the fictitious Probst is a steel worker who finds common ground with Charlie Martin during the Xmas 1914 truce. After the war Probst is involved with the Freikorps and becomes a devoted Nazi. He serves as a volunteer in the Spanish Civil War and again serves during WWII before being killed at Stalingrad.

Isoroku Yamamoto

Kohei Nakamura, a Japanese soldier during WWII before returning home to work in the docks in his home city of Hiroshima. He is at work at 8.15 am on August 6, 1945.

Josef Dzugashvili (later Stalin).

Edward Sledge, serves in the Alabama National Guard during the Battle of Columbus against Pancho Villa in 1916. Later becomes a physician. His son Eugene serves with the US Marines in the Pacific during WWII.

George Arnsion (jnr) is George Enos

Gaston Fournier, son of Edith Simon and Marcel Fournier. Gaston is one of the French servicemen evacuated from Dunkirk and serves with the free French.

Nathalie Janvier, daughter of Nancy and Henri Janvier and sister of Edith Fournier (Simon) though close in age to edith's son Gaston. Nathalie runs the cafe and is involved in a resistance cell.

Dick Winters, a university graduate who joins Easy Company of the 506 Parachute Infantry Regiment of the US Army in August 1941.

John Howard, a British serviceman who liberated Pegasus Bridge with the 6th British Airbourne Division of the British Army in the early hours of D-Day.
 
Other appearances and mentions.

Serving with the Harlem Hellfighters Cinnciatus' (white) CO is Major Tom Colleton. Colleton asks Cinncinatus why he joined up. After giving his answer he asks Colleton the same question. Colleton answers that his older sister Anne was aboad the Lusitania.

Georges Gaultier (second son of Lucien) is a close friend of Alexander McGregor. The two joined up at the same time and went through the ranks together. Both became officers but Gaultier was killed during the failed Dieppe raid in 1942 while McGregor escaped.

I have others in mind but not decided yet.
 

JoeMulk

Banned
Anne Colleton is Anna Von Cossenburg a wealthy baroness who finances the early nazi party after the downfall of the Hohenzellhorns.
 
This idea went a bit dead, but I've been thinking about it recently and I'm glad I've refound this thread as its kicking up a few ideas again.
 
It tickled me that Franklin D Roosevelt, Secretary of War (TL 191, POTUS) seemed to be very friendly with Winston Churchill, but given the scenario that had unfolded, it was plausible. Stalin in Russia seems to have been a brutal b*stard though - I wonder how long that alliance would have lasted had the series continued..

Stalin was a giant jackass:mad::mad::mad::mad:

To me Stalin was actually one of the redeeming qualities of the whole series. Think about it. In OTL Featherston was certainly a monster and a jackass (like Hitler in TTL) but the Allies were not without their faults. This is more noticeable in Europe, where the Entente simply behaved as one would expect. The crimes committed by Tsarist Russia were numerous but nothing to the extent of Featherston in OTL or Hitler & Stalin in TTL. Meanwhile, Germany could be severely reprimanded by its abusive use of superbombs to end the war swiftly.

Without Stalin TL 191 would have been too black-and-white and rather moralistic, "here are the allies democratic and socialist standing for liberty against the fascist (awesome term he came up with BTW) nazi horde". Stalin adds spice to that story. The US and Britain allied with the devil to get rid of the current thread.

I think it would have been very very interesting to see what would happen in the series after the Second Great War analog. I'd expect the a falling between the western US/British allies and the communist Russians/Yugoslavs akin to OTL's German-American split after the Congo affair (OOC: see David's After the End). However the split is likely to be much less amiable. China can go either way. But likely aligns with Russia.

I think I have to complain about how our great hero General George Armstrong Custer died battling a bunch of savages ! I mean come on the great hero of the first Great War dying against natives of all people ?Shit he survived against the rebs , brits , canucks , and even held down those backstabbinb mormons down when they dared rise against us during the Second Mexican War.

I think he was just tying loose ends. He clearly wanted to make the US a bit more of a moral player. Custer, for all the great things he is remembered for was also a bit of a douche.

The D-Day landings were, hands down, as The Doctor said, the most interesting part of the series. It was truly quite amazing. Of course, we all know that if that were tried in real-life, the men would be slaughtered from the artillery and machinegun fire. And no one would be as stupid as Hitler as to not send those "Panzer" divisions to defend the beaches.

Sort of ASB, but I think that part is redeeming of the whole series.

Like Stalin, I loved this solution. It was a good way of not having everyone superbomb each other till kingdom come. I thought it was week that Germany decided not to put resources into a superbomb program because it was "jew science" but think about it; otherwise you would have the two major developers of superbomb power but heads with each other. It was bad in OTL, but I'd expect a Nazi Germany with superbombs to blast the shit out of Russia, Britain and for the US to retaliate like wise against Germany.
 
The early books were easily the best part. I think us Americans (northerners especially) tend to look back on the War of Secession and think that if it hadn't happened and the former Confederate States had stayed in the U.S. all along, everything would've been sunshine and roses. Who can blame us? Maybe I'm saying this because I just got back from a business trip to Texas, and took the time to visit the site of Camp Determination and what I saw there is still really fresh in my memory, but...I think we in the United States are really prone to guilt-based wishful thinking that if only one thing had happened differently, everything would be kosher (those of us from the north, at least. In the South, well...as you know, they don't like to talk about it at all).

But I've really got to give Turtledove credit for not indulging in any illusions. Sure, North America became a relatively peaceful part of the world TTL, but he did a lot to really show the race and class issues under the surface that would've gone unaddressed. I'm a died-in-the-wool Socialist and I'm proud of things like our national health care system, pensions, and limits on working hours, but this book does a lot to demonstrate that the only reason we turned to such a system in the first place was because of the trauma of the wars. Without them, Americans would have just complacently coasted along not doing anything about class inequality. And as for racial issues, well, that's of course an even more sensitive issue, but I thought it was really daring of Turtledove to show that even though the Negroes were not enslaved and did not suffer genocide, there still would've been a lot of institutional slavery without the lessons we learned in the 20th Century OTL.

Though I've got mixed feelings on the idea of transplanting the Holocaust from America to Germany. Don't get me wrong, I've met plenty of Germans, and most of them are good, decent people, but I've met more than a few who REALLY get on my nerves and act like they're God's fucking chosen people. When I'm in a bad mood about that, sometimes I think I'd like anything that would've smacked the smug condescension out of such people. But on the other hand, I think I'd prefer no Holocaust at all.

One thing, though, that didn't sit well with me: Adolf Hitler. a.k.a. Jake Featherston who needs an exorcism. :rolleyes:

Hitler was fine in the early GW1 books, but everything after that really showed a streak of laziness on Turtledove's part. It was at that point where he stopped writing history and started writing a damn comic book. I understand that he was trying to tell a compelling story and up the ante, but this was just too much. Featherston was, to put it mildly, a monster and a prick, but it wasn't for nothing that he was so popular: he was charming. He was loyal to his followers. For all the things that could be said about him, there wasn't a cowardly bone in his body. He personally took care of wounded Confederate soldiers. In other words, for all the horrid things about him, he was, at the core, a human being. That's really the scary thing about his legacy: I've read almost all the biographies on him, and they agree that during the first war, for example, people liked him and considered him a fairly easygoing, competent officer whose army career was squashed through no fault of his own. He liked whiskey and cigars just like any other everyday Southerner. And yet a guy who could've just gone on to be an average guy with a decent life ended up becoming the worst human being in history.

Now compare that to this Hitler shmoe, who not only was a genocidal tyrant, but also an uptight tightass whose early life is a string of failures and living like a spoiled wannabe artist, got on the nerves of his GW1 comrades-in-arms because he wouldn't shut up and quit acting like a walking propaganda poster when almost every other German soldier was sick of that stupid war, was a non-smoker and vegetarian who tried to shove his personal tastes down his subordinate's throats, and a rageaholic who blamed his own failures on everyone around him. And a guy who ended the war not by planning to fight to his last breath, but by cowering in a bunker and taking his own life.

I just could not buy this. Stalin, the Russian communist dictator, I could take seriously, and as was just said, he at least gave the appearance that Turtledove was trying not to be too black and white. But I just could not take Hitler or the Nazis seriously as possible historical figures. For God's sake, there's even a part in one of the books (the SS "wedding") that touches on Nazi ideology's at least partial interest in paganism and occultism! Ooooooooooh, scaaaaaaaaaaary!! :rolleyes:
 
One thing, though, that didn't sit well with me: Adolf Hitler. a.k.a. Jake Featherston who needs an exorcism. :rolleyes:

Hitler was fine in the early GW1 books, but everything after that really showed a streak of laziness on Turtledove's part. It was at that point where he stopped writing history and started writing a damn comic book. I understand that he was trying to tell a compelling story and up the ante, but this was just too much. Featherston was, to put it mildly, a monster and a prick, but it wasn't for nothing that he was so popular: he was charming. He was loyal to his followers. For all the things that could be said about him, there wasn't a cowardly bone in his body. He personally took care of wounded Confederate soldiers. In other words, for all the horrid things about him, he was, at the core, a human being. That's really the scary thing about his legacy: I've read almost all the biographies on him, and they agree that during the first war, for example, people liked him and considered him a fairly easygoing, competent officer whose army career was squashed through no fault of his own. He liked whiskey and cigars just like any other everyday Southerner. And yet a guy who could've just gone on to be an average guy with a decent life ended up becoming the worst human being in history.

Now compare that to this Hitler shmoe, who not only was a genocidal tyrant, but also an uptight tightass whose early life is a string of failures and living like a spoiled wannabe artist, got on the nerves of his GW1 comrades-in-arms because he wouldn't shut up and quit acting like a walking propaganda poster when almost every other German soldier was sick of that stupid war, was a non-smoker and vegetarian who tried to shove his personal tastes down his subordinate's throats, and a rageaholic who blamed his own failures on everyone around him. And a guy who ended the war not by planning to fight to his last breath, but by cowering in a bunker and taking his own life.

I just could not buy this. Stalin, the Russian communist dictator, I could take seriously, and as was just said, he at least gave the appearance that Turtledove was trying not to be too black and white. But I just could not take Hitler or the Nazis seriously as possible historical figures. For God's sake, there's even a part in one of the books (the SS "wedding") that touches on Nazi ideology's at least partial interest in paganism and occultism! Ooooooooooh, scaaaaaaaaaaary!! :rolleyes:

Do you think Turtledove was conscious that as Hitler is obviously TTL's Featherstone, he deliberately made his personality so different. Otherwise he'd be accused of simply ripping off OTL (more than he already is)? I think he went a bit too far in making Hitler really fucked up. I mean - similar to your points - he was pretty much celebate, bad tempered, a non smoker, non drinker, vegetarian, unpopular during GW1/WW1 and then there was that bit in 'The Centre Cannot Hold' with his infatuation with his own neice, who ends up committing suicide because of him! Sure, you could have maybe one or two of any of those traits, but it's like Turtledove's taken every bad and weird trait you could think of and plonked them all into one man.

I know he wasn't a main character, but he was mentioned quite a bit, but Mussolini in Italy seemed too much of a clown. His posturing as a tough guy but then he seemed to mess up in so many ways which often ended up in Hitler bailing him out. I'm sure Turtledove mentions him to inject a bit of comedy, but its too much and just doesn't seem very realistic to me.

The idea of Churchill being so staunchly democratic and anti-fascist is something I and other Brits have big problems with. In OTL, he was a huge stain on this nation. Yes the regime in theory was a Silvershirt-Conservative coalition and he was the Conservative side of it. But it was a coalition nontheless and the Conservatives were willing and eager participants, under Churchill's lead. It was Churchill and his supporters who engineered the internal coup within the Conservatives to oust the moderates such as Baldwin, Chamberlain and Halifax so they could link up with Mosley's mob. (The idea that in TTL - Churchill actually has Mosley arrested and interned for the duration of the war is funny I suppose.)
But then thinking about it in OTL, Churchill was a mainstream politician until the end of GW1 in what was one of the most democratic countries in the world at that time. So I suppose in a scenario where Britain comes out of GW1 victorious, democracy isn't under threat and Churchill continues in that tradition. I can understand that, but why does it have to be Churchill who becomes the big icon and hero? I mean in TTL, he even falls out of favour sitting as a back bench MP and writing history books. Why not just leave him like that? sure, he's not a monster in TTL - we get it - fine, but why make a hero out of him?
 

Abhakhazia

Banned
I was kind of disturbed by Himmler. He was more scary that Hitler, who was even more scary than Featherston. Featherston's racism was terrible, but by events in his life you can see why it happened and such. Himmler basically had his own, like, neo-Norse religion thing going on.

Another thing I thought was interesting, is how the south was only a little better for blacks than the OTL south, with the Jim Crow laws and everything. Why didn't they actually enforce TTL's 14th Amendment?
 
I was kind of disturbed by Himmler. He was more scary that Hitler, who was even more scary than Featherston. Featherston's racism was terrible, but by events in his life you can see why it happened and such. Himmler basically had his own, like, neo-Norse religion thing going on.

Another thing I thought was interesting, is how the south was only a little better for blacks than the OTL south, with the Jim Crow laws and everything. Why didn't they actually enforce TTL's 14th Amendment?

The Southerners didn't want to let blacks be equal, they didn't OTL given the choice, and they wouldn't when forced on them. It was only for so long that the Northerners could try, and even then most of the abolitionists were racists. They may have hated the slave practice, but they still saw blacks as inferior, kinda how some people don't want animals to be worked to death, but still see them as servants to people.

The South only had to hold it's breath for the North to stop fighting, then the power was theirs.
 
The Southerners didn't want to let blacks be equal, they didn't OTL given the choice, and they wouldn't when forced on them. It was only for so long that the Northerners could try, and even then most of the abolitionists were racists. They may have hated the slave practice, but they still saw blacks as inferior, kinda how some people don't want animals to be worked to death, but still see them as servants to people.

The South only had to hold it's breath for the North to stop fighting, then the power was theirs.

Umm....that's a BIT of a stretch, TBH.....
 
Do you think Turtledove was conscious that as Hitler is obviously TTL's Featherstone, he deliberately made his personality so different. Otherwise he'd be accused of simply ripping off OTL (more than he already is)? I think he went a bit too far in making Hitler really fucked up. I mean - similar to your points - he was pretty much celebate, bad tempered, a non smoker, non drinker, vegetarian, unpopular during GW1/WW1 and then there was that bit in 'The Centre Cannot Hold' with his infatuation with his own neice, who ends up committing suicide because of him! Sure, you could have maybe one or two of any of those traits, but it's like Turtledove's taken every bad and weird trait you could think of and plonked them all into one man.

I know he wasn't a main character, but he was mentioned quite a bit, but Mussolini in Italy seemed too much of a clown. His posturing as a tough guy but then he seemed to mess up in so many ways which often ended up in Hitler bailing him out. I'm sure Turtledove mentions him to inject a bit of comedy, but its too much and just doesn't seem very realistic to me.

The idea of Churchill being so staunchly democratic and anti-fascist is something I and other Brits have big problems with. In OTL, he was a huge stain on this nation. Yes the regime in theory was a Silvershirt-Conservative coalition and he was the Conservative side of it. But it was a coalition nontheless and the Conservatives were willing and eager participants, under Churchill's lead. It was Churchill and his supporters who engineered the internal coup within the
Conservatives to oust the moderates such as Baldwin, Chamberlain and Halifax so they could link up with Mosley's mob. (The idea that in TTL - Churchill actually has Mosley arrested and interned for the duration of the war is funny I suppose.)
But then thinking about it in OTL, Churchill was a mainstream politician until the end of GW1 in what was one of the most democratic countries in the world at that time. So I suppose in a scenario where Britain comes out of GW1 victorious, democracy isn't under threat and Churchill continues in that tradition. I can understand that, but why does it have to be Churchill who becomes the big icon and hero? I mean in TTL, he even falls out of favour sitting as a back bench MP and writing history books. Why not just leave him like that? sure, he's not a monster in TTL - we get it - fine, but why make a hero out of him?

I think the point HT was trying to make was that Churchill, in the right place at the right time, could become Britain's greatest Prime Minister.

Although did anyone else see the similarities between the Nazis burning that French village, and a similar massacre in South Carolina that the US government has recently opened an inquiry into?
 
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