DBWI: The Turtledove TL-191 Discussion Thread.
- Thread starter Tom_NUFC
- Start date
Shouldn't it be Return Engagement? I mean, if you bothered to use the same names for the other three books, and there's nothing inherently different in the name Return Engagement.
I think reading the book explains that.
In OTL, Featherston used 'Return Engagement' to describe the Confederate tactics in the early part of the Second Great War, it was a buzzword.
The Nazis in the ATL aren't going to use the same buzzwords, because 'return engagement' in German doesn't have the same impact.
In the book, the Nazis (and also the Allies, borrowing the term) refer to their devastatingly fast attacks as 'Blitzkrieg', which I believe is German for 'Lightning War'.
In OTL, Featherston used 'Return Engagement' to describe the Confederate tactics in the early part of the Second Great War, it was a buzzword.
The Nazis in the ATL aren't going to use the same buzzwords, because 'return engagement' in German doesn't have the same impact.
In the book, the Nazis (and also the Allies, borrowing the term) refer to their devastatingly fast attacks as 'Blitzkrieg', which I believe is German for 'Lightning War'.
OOC: Yes it is, And a TREMENDOUS Job on The Book Covers, But what is Planet Battle, an Alternate Turtledove Novel?
Whoever Wrote The Book Backs, is an Artist with Words, that's for Sure ...
So, What do you Think, The Post-War Books Will be Like?
It will probably be like how the world was after the first great war with the US and the German Empire only far worse. And what happens to Germany? Does it get annexed like the CSA did in OTL? I haven't read the final book yet.OOC: Yes it is, And a TREMENDOUS Job on The Book Covers, But what is Planet Battle, an Alternate Turtledove Novel?
Whoever Wrote The Book Backs, is an Artist with Words, that's for Sure ...
So, What do you Think, The Post-War Books Will be Like?
Annexed by who? France? Because I doubt the United States would want to annex it (or that their allies would let them). I haven't read the last book yet either.
Probably Soviet Russia, that Stalin Strikes me as The Kinda Guy who would Develop a Paranoid Fantasy about EVER being Invaded Again ...
However IOTL at Least, The Bolsheviks were Always Very Crafty Lil' Buggers ...
Maybe they'd Stumble upon The Idea to Rule Over Half of Europe through The Use of Communist Puppet Regimes!
While I feel the sheer volume of determination on the Russian side was more of an effort to allow HT to have the Americans, French, or British make up most of the fighting. I mean it seems almost odd to read of men and women fighting in Stalidelphia with gunmen behind their backs, and yet a few chapters later you do not even hear of such a thing. Its like Stalin is this massive badass guy, but he never can set down a specific way of fighting.
Yeah yeah, they started winning, but if people are ready to flee for the Communists at one point why would another year utterly change all of Russias opinion?
Yeah yeah, they started winning, but if people are ready to flee for the Communists at one point why would another year utterly change all of Russias opinion?
I thought the most ridiculous thing about the entire series was the completely unbelieveable role Turtledove gives to Canada.
In the Great War, they're described as the "elite unit" of the Allied army. OK, I can kind of buy that, they DID put up a hell of a fight against the US Army in OTL.
But elite or not, the "Vimy Ridge" battle is a little hard to swallow....how could the canucks take the "impregnable" German position in 1 day with less than 5,000 dead after the French lost 150,000 trying to take it???
Then, fast forward to the Second Great War and he has them launching that pointless Dieppe raid for no particular reason.
It just gets worse and worse from there - then he has them a full partner with the USA and Britain in the D-Day landings. That's so far out there that I can't even really think of an equivalent in OTL, maybe it would be like having Ottoman paratroopers taking part in the attack on Lookout Mountain.
And then....he describes them as having the "world's 3rd-largest navy" by the end of the Second Great War. OK, so they remain part of the British Empire in TL-191...but still....you've got to be kidding me.
The whole Canada thing was one long flight of fancy, and it really detracted from the most interesting parts of the novel, especially D-Day, where it was just a distraction to have POV's from 3 countries instead of 2, since there is no way the big countries would give a much smaller country such a leading role. (Can't imagine Germany and the USA including the Republic of Texas as an equal partner in a major military operation....)
In the Great War, they're described as the "elite unit" of the Allied army. OK, I can kind of buy that, they DID put up a hell of a fight against the US Army in OTL.
But elite or not, the "Vimy Ridge" battle is a little hard to swallow....how could the canucks take the "impregnable" German position in 1 day with less than 5,000 dead after the French lost 150,000 trying to take it???
Then, fast forward to the Second Great War and he has them launching that pointless Dieppe raid for no particular reason.
It just gets worse and worse from there - then he has them a full partner with the USA and Britain in the D-Day landings. That's so far out there that I can't even really think of an equivalent in OTL, maybe it would be like having Ottoman paratroopers taking part in the attack on Lookout Mountain.
And then....he describes them as having the "world's 3rd-largest navy" by the end of the Second Great War. OK, so they remain part of the British Empire in TL-191...but still....you've got to be kidding me.
The whole Canada thing was one long flight of fancy, and it really detracted from the most interesting parts of the novel, especially D-Day, where it was just a distraction to have POV's from 3 countries instead of 2, since there is no way the big countries would give a much smaller country such a leading role. (Can't imagine Germany and the USA including the Republic of Texas as an equal partner in a major military operation....)
Canadian beer works wonders! Or maybe the French kept trying to surrender?
Ottoman paratroopers...I like that.
Let's not forget the Ethiopian Navy helping to back up the Union blockade...
Last edited:
Actually, I thought "Monty" was a scream. Obviously, he was there for comic relief.
Also, I guess in fairness....when you look at British history prior to the Great War, it is essentially one long tale of British generals losing every battle and yet somehow still winning the war. Montgomery obviously carries on that tradition for Turtledove, though of course we know in reality that their luck ran out in the Great War.
The character who REALLY drove me nuts more than any other was Goering. I mean, Turtledove builds up the "Nazi Luftwaffe" as this invincible air force, chock full of technologically advanced planes and the best-trained pilots going.
then, somehow, he has to have this terrifying enemy inexplicably lose battles...so he invents this Goering dunderhead, who wanders into the story every once and a while, makes the stupidest possible decision, and then we don't see him again for some time.
In real life I've got to believe the Germans would never let an idiot like that run their air force. Sure, Featherston promoted his buddies and that's clearly where where Turtledove got the idea for Goering. But, Ferd Koenig was pretty competent at what he did (more's the pity) - unlike the Deus Ex Machina that is the Goering character.
Canadian beer works wonders! Or maybe the French kept trying to surrender?
Ottoman paratroopers...I like that.
Re: the Canadian beer - he didn't even get that right, he has them drinking RUM of all things...because we all know the Brits are such master brewers of rum.
Ethiopian Navy...lol. I guess another analogy to Turtledove's love-in with the Canucks would be if the Bulgarian Army had evolved into an elite formation that spearheaded the German victories in 1917 in OTL. It just don't seem too likely.....
But I'll tell ya... I envy that Turtledove's vision a bit : Only Japan got nuked there during the Second Great War - and only 2 times ! - not like in OTL... I would like to live in a AH like that... At least Hiroshima would get trashed, not Philadelphia... Hm, then again...
Goering was a drug-abusing perverted slob who had no business in any professional military unit, much less one promoted as the greatest air force in the world to date.
I do get a kick out of his treatment of George Patton as a tactical genius and brilliant leader of men who almost singlehandedly spearheads the drive into Germany. We all know that Patton was a martinet who was almost shot in the back by his own troops during the retreat from Ohio, and never held another significant command again. I guess he was really an ASB in disguise, that's the only way I can figure out the transformation. OTOH, he was a good comic foil for Montgomery.
And 'Douglas' MacArthur abandonning his troops to the Japanese? After failing to set up a proper defensive strategy, thus causing the United States to lose its largest territory in the Pacific? And to top it off, this chucklehead isn't cashiered for such gross incompetence and cowardice! I guess Turtledove had to invent another MacArthur to fill the role, as the Daniel MacArthur we know would never have done such a thing!