DBWI: The September 11th Plot Was Successful?

As many of us know, their was a plot by certain members of the Islamic terrorist group Al-Qaeda, to carry out terrorist attacks on American soil, that were foiled by security forces on September 11th, 2001. What if America wasn't so lucky, and the attacks were carried out?

From what we've learned since then, the plan was to hijack four plans, and crash them into various buildings, such as the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, the White House, and the Statue of Liberty.

The economy is definetly going to take a down turn, at least for a little. Thousands of lives will be lost, unlike anything seen on American soil since Pearl Harbor. With that in mind, much more drastic action is going to be taken against Al-Qaeda and other groups than in OTL. A war, or maybe multiple wars is likely in this senario.

So, any thoughts?
 
Wasn't Al Qaeda getting shelter from Taliban-run Afghanistan? If the US had gone after them there, the Taliban might have lost its hold on power and not been able to launch all those attacks in northern India.
 
Osama bin Laden would have been killed almost instantly. I wasn't a fan of W during his brief period in office, but I can't picture him doing anything but going into Afghanistan, finding bin Laden even if he has to track him across the borders, then killing him. That might have even given him enough credibility with the voters to get him elected to (shudder) a second term. And in the second term, he might have finally been able to talk Congress into invading Iraq.
 
Osama bin Laden would have been killed almost instantly. I wasn't a fan of W during his brief period in office, but I can't picture him doing anything but going into Afghanistan, finding bin Laden even if he has to track him across the borders, then killing him. That might have even given him enough credibility with the voters to get him elected to (shudder) a second term. And in the second term, he might have finally been able to talk Congress into invading Iraq.

Iraq? A secular dictatorship which had no connection to Al Quaeda? I know Bush had a personal grudge against the place but that's not going to fly before congress or the American people. In fact, I'd expect a quick rehabilitation of Iraq's image so that the US could back them against Iran, which is after all an Islamic Republic and much more likely to take the blame.
 

Penelope

Banned
I know someone made an awesome TL about this, but I don't feel like tracking it down so I'll just direct you to a book.

Murky Waters and Grey Areas, by Todd Kleidman.
 
Osama bin Laden would have been killed almost instantly. I wasn't a fan of W during his brief period in office, but I can't picture him doing anything but going into Afghanistan, finding bin Laden even if he has to track him across the borders, then killing him. That might have even given him enough credibility with the voters to get him elected to (shudder) a second term. And in the second term, he might have finally been able to talk Congress into invading Iraq.

So, to sum what you are saying up in one simple sentence: The US still invades Iraq in 2005? And who would President Bush's successor (in the ATL 2008) be? Unlike OTL it won't be President (Zell) Miller...

Unlike you, I thought that George Bush wasn't that bad of a US President. It's just that Bill Clinton was a hard act to follow.

Bush had the balls to walk away from that gong show known as the Kyoto Accord. Hell, he kept the US out of Sudan in 2003, which both fulfilled one of his major campaign promises (no more interventions/nation building) and set the internationalists in both the US and Europe howling with indignation. Too bad the Dot Com bubble burst on his watch. The 2003/4 recession is what torpedoed his chances at re-election, not his domestic and foreign policies.
 
I don't feel this is an AH situation.

I returned to The States on 9/10 from Montreal, because I had a meeting on the 11th.

I was at that meeting when we heard that New York was being bombed.

We were able to get CNN on the big screen in the meeting room and the first image I remember was a shot from the Executive Office building over the Whitehouse, showing smoke rising against the horizon. The commentators had their geography wrong and I knew it was northern Virginia, Where I lived at the time.

We were meeting in Tysons Corner Va and the drive back to my hotel on Capitol Hill was nothing less than frightening, we were going the opposite direction to traffic with a crazed Philippino at the wheel of our SUV (I was the director of sales at a hotel 2 blocks from the capitol at the time).

The next morning, I had to drive through the smoke still rising from the Pentagon, knowing the it contained the ashes of the people who had died in the attack.

It is still too close for many of us to use it as a POD for an intellectual game.

I suggest that the POD be placed further along, after the historical events of that day. Look at W's response, the buildup to the war in Iraq. but leave the date as sacrosanct until I at least am dead.
 
I don't feel this is an AH situation.

I returned to The States on 9/10 from Montreal, because I had a meeting on the 11th.

I was at that meeting when we heard that New York was being bombed.

We were able to get CNN on the big screen in the meeting room and the first image I remember was a shot from the Executive Office building over the Whitehouse, showing smoke rising against the horizon. The commentators had their geography wrong and I knew it was northern Virginia, Where I lived at the time.

We were meeting in Tysons Corner Va and the drive back to my hotel on Capitol Hill was nothing less than frightening, we were going the opposite direction to traffic with a crazed Philippino at the wheel of our SUV (I was the director of sales at a hotel 2 blocks from the capitol at the time).

The next morning, I had to drive through the smoke still rising from the Pentagon, knowing the it contained the ashes of the people who had died in the attack.

It is still too close for many of us to use it as a POD for an intellectual game.

I suggest that the POD be placed further along, after the historical events of that day. Look at W's response, the buildup to the war in Iraq. but leave the date as sacrosanct until I at least am dead.

You know, you didn't have to read the thread...

Creating a world where the events of Sept 11 2001 played out very differently is legitimate. So is having the people in that world ponder what might have been had things gone as they really did. 9/11 happened close to ten years ago, and for most people, ten years ago is ancient history...
 
You know, you didn't have to read the thread...

9/11 happened close to ten years ago, and for most people, ten years ago is ancient history...

You are right. I interpret this site to be a place to play intellectual games that in the worst case are silly and ridiculous, normally intellectually stimulating adventures into what might have been and in the best of circumstances, leading to insight that drives a better understanding of history. "what is past is prologue".

I have not been here long, but I have learned that there are many things I do not know and many I want to know more about.

I am not drawing a direct comparison by any means between my personal experiences 10 years ago (which seem like yesterday) and the holocaust, but would you promulgate a thread about the holocaust that re-works events to make it different?

Few of us were here for Pearl Harbor, there are not many raw nerves left, and the pale of history has rendered that a memory, not an experience. Ten years can be but a moment if you live through something and wonder if a jet is flying towards the building 3 block away.

Again, I suggest that the POD be post 9/11. Lets explore the options available to us after the event and not re-write the event itself.
 
You are right. I interpret this site to be a place to play intellectual games that in the worst case are silly and ridiculous, normally intellectually stimulating adventures into what might have been and in the best of circumstances, leading to insight that drives a better understanding of history. "what is past is prologue".

I have not been here long, but I have learned that there are many things I do not know and many I want to know more about.

I am not drawing a direct comparison by any means between my personal experiences 10 years ago (which seem like yesterday) and the holocaust, but would you promulgate a thread about the holocaust that re-works events to make it different?

Few of us were here for Pearl Harbor, there are not many raw nerves left, and the pale of history has rendered that a memory, not an experience. Ten years can be but a moment if you live through something and wonder if a jet is flying towards the building 3 block away.

Again, I suggest that the POD be post 9/11. Lets explore the options available to us after the event and not re-write the event itself.

Here, the POD (plotters get caught) is probably 4-6 weeks before Sept 11, and 11 Sept 2001 was just an ordinary Tuesday where nothing newsworthy happened. CNN probably went on and on and on about Chandra Levy (a young lady who became famous for A: being very attractive, B: being a congressman's aide and C: turning up dead), as the had for the last six weeks.

The end result is a world where someone is posting a ghastly AH question on the Ah.com/Cf.net analogue: What if these guys weren't caught? (The Original Post...) The result is a series of potential TLs that are a close reflection of OTL.
 
You are right. I interpret this site to be a place to play intellectual games that in the worst case are silly and ridiculous, normally intellectually stimulating adventures into what might have been and in the best of circumstances, leading to insight that drives a better understanding of history. "what is past is prologue".

I have not been here long, but I have learned that there are many things I do not know and many I want to know more about.

I am not drawing a direct comparison by any means between my personal experiences 10 years ago (which seem like yesterday) and the holocaust, but would you promulgate a thread about the holocaust that re-works events to make it different?

Few of us were here for Pearl Harbor, there are not many raw nerves left, and the pale of history has rendered that a memory, not an experience. Ten years can be but a moment if you live through something and wonder if a jet is flying towards the building 3 block away.

Again, I suggest that the POD be post 9/11. Lets explore the options available to us after the event and not re-write the event itself.

While I understand where you're coming from, the fact is that while memories fade, they do so at different rates for different people. Some may have been ready to do something like this a week following the attacks. Others will never see it as anything but offensive to those who died and those who survived. However, this "game", like all alternate history, forces us to confront our assumptions about both the past and the present, and to re-examine historical events, human society, and the complex factors and motivations that make up the entirety of our existence.

The 9/11 attacks were a pivotal moment in American history, and cry out for this sort of examination and interpretation.
 
It would have had a psycological effect for sure. However I'm not convinced that multiple hyjackers could even pull off what had been planned. Say that in the extreme possibility that all four of the aircraft wouldve been sucsessfully hyjacksed. It would have been pretty obvious what was going to happen after the first plane impacted with what ever target was the closest. The military would've taken out the other 3 planes, especially since the military jast happened to be on high alert due to wargames being played out that day. No planes would have been allowed to make it into DC airspace, so an attack against the whitehouse is off. The only way that would happen is if somone on the inside allowed it to happen. Also an attack against the pentagon is tricky given the profile the building has to offer, even a really really really good pilot has a marginal chance of hitting a structural weak spot since the building is designed to withstand an airblast from a tactical nuke with minimal damage.

So the only other reasonable target would have been either one of the WTC towers or the Statue of liberty. Although it would be easy to hit the WTC, the size of the 737 planned for use woulnt do more than cause fires on the floors impacted and intense smoke for the floors above. The building would DERFINATELY sustain as it would take planted explosives to do any more damage than that. Jet fuel wont burn hot enough to weaken the tower's super structure. No more chance of doing any real damage to (let alone) completely destroyig the WTC than the 1993 had.

The only real target that couldve been devistating would be a hit against the Statue of Liberty. I highly doubt the steel and copper structure could sustain.
 
It would have had a psycological effect for sure. However I'm not convinced that multiple hyjackers could even pull off what had been planned. Say that in the extreme possibility that all four of the aircraft wouldve been sucsessfully hyjacksed. It would have been pretty obvious what was going to happen after the first plane impacted with what ever target was the closest. The military would've taken out the other 3 planes, especially since the military jast happened to be on high alert due to wargames being played out that day. No planes would have been allowed to make it into DC airspace, so an attack against the whitehouse is off. The only way that would happen is if somone on the inside allowed it to happen. Also an attack against the pentagon is tricky given the profile the building has to offer, even a really really really good pilot has a marginal chance of hitting a structural weak spot since the building is designed to withstand an airblast from a tactical nuke with minimal damage.

The bolded bit is a load of shite. The Pentagon was built in 1941-42, before anyone had any idea that nuclear weapons were even feasible, let alone so destructive. Not to mention that the building is filled with stuff that will burn quite merrily provided that it gets doused in flaming jet fuel. And, even if the pentagon is low to the ground, it is a huge and unmistakable target. A plane won't be enought to level the place, but one will be more than enough to do some serious structural damage and to start a large an very damaging fire.

So the only other reasonable target would have been either one of the WTC towers or the Statue of liberty. Although it would be easy to hit the WTC, the size of the 737 planned for use woulnt do more than cause fires on the floors impacted and intense smoke for the floors above. The building would DERFINATELY sustain as it would take planted explosives to do any more damage than that. Jet fuel wont burn hot enough to weaken the tower's super structure. No more chance of doing any real damage to (let alone) completely destroyig the WTC than the 1993 had.

The only real target that couldve been devistating would be a hit against the Statue of Liberty. I highly doubt the steel and copper structure could sustain.

I'm also going to have to call BS on this part. That fire in Shanghai in 2006 showed that the ordinary contents of a skyscraper (paper, wood and plastic) burned hot enough to severely weaken the whole of the steel frame. (Heat steel to about halfway to it's melting point and it loses more than half of it's over strength. And not even all of the frame has to get that hot, just enough to collapse one floor, or to collapse even about a quarter of one floor. And then the whole thing goes...) That is why that 100 story building collapsed after burning for eight hours. Add in the structural damage from the impact of a Boeing 757 (that is what they were planning to use, not the smaller 737), and a near full load of burning jet fuel, and it is likely that whichever of the WTC towers that got hit would be gone by sundown, if not much, much sooner. It is highly unlikely that enough hijacked planes will still be around to hit both towers, but the one that is hit is almost certainly going to go down. At the very least, it will have to be torn down due to the structural damage. And if one tower goes, the structural damage inflicted on the other will be severe enough to force it's eventual demolition.
 
I suppose that the psychic shock will also depend upon the time of the attack. Are you talking about a Sunday, when you're mostly going to have tourists, but the majority of offices will either be empty or staffed with a skeleton crew? Or are we looking at midday workweek, with the offices full to bursting?
 
Well, we now know that Al-Quada, the Taliban, and the IFI are all closely linked and that the IFI trained many of both groups operatives. Because of this, I could see Bush invading Pakistan, especially if Ben Ladin managed to slip away, as that is the only place he would go.

And Bush definately gets reelected; in war time, voters tend to stick with the man they know.
 
I am not drawing a direct comparison by any means between my personal experiences 10 years ago (which seem like yesterday) and the holocaust, but would you promulgate a thread about the holocaust that re-works events to make it different?
I'm reasonably certain that there have been several threads on the board that did exactly that.

Well, we now know that Al-Quada, the Taliban, and the IFI are all closely linked and that the IFI trained many of both groups operatives. Because of this, I could see Bush invading Pakistan, especially if Ben Ladin managed to slip away, as that is the only place he would go.
I doubt Pakistan would get invaded since they have nuclear weapons; way too much potential for things to go horribly wrong. However, I could see the US bringing all kinds of pressure short of invasion against Pakistan; I imagine the mere hint that the US will back India in every future India/Pakistan clash would be more than enough to make any Pakistani government quite attentive to US interests.
 

CMBA

Banned

So basically we can only talk about it once we're old and long past retirement?

Indeed, this is quite a sensitive topic, I acknowledge that. However, the intended discourse within the thread was purely objective and analytical, not in an emotional or nationalistic nature.

If this thread is too fresh a wound, one can simply pass by it.

In the first place, the implied discussion is not in any way deriding the honor of those who lost their lives and loved ones to the act of terror.

We were meeting in Tysons Corner Va and the drive back to my hotel on Capitol Hill was nothing less than frightening, we were going the opposite direction to traffic with a crazed Philippino at the wheel of our SUV (I was the director of sales at a hotel 2 blocks from the capitol at the time).

Additionally, pointing out the nationality of a "crazed driver" in a situation that does not concern it is likewise as offensive to the people of that country as it is to the victims of this incident.

Again, if this thread is too fresh a wound, one can simply pass by it and we will honor one's choice.
 
I suppose that the psychic shock will also depend upon the time of the attack. Are you talking about a Sunday, when you're mostly going to have tourists, but the majority of offices will either be empty or staffed with a skeleton crew? Or are we looking at midday workweek, with the offices full to bursting?

Checking a calendar, it would have been on a Tuesday, so the latter. Everything would have been at near-max capacity. Not only would we have been dealing with the symbolism, but we're talking a hell of a lot of people, and some of our major financial and military institutions going down as well, if the plot went as scheduled.
 
As many of us know, their was a plot by certain members of the Islamic terrorist group Al-Qaeda, to carry out terrorist attacks on American soil, that were foiled by security forces on September 11th, 2001. What if America wasn't so lucky, and the attacks were carried out?

From what we've learned since then, the plan was to hijack four plans, and crash them into various buildings, such as the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, the White House, and the Statue of Liberty.

The economy is definetly going to take a down turn, at least for a little. Thousands of lives will be lost, unlike anything seen on American soil since Pearl Harbor. With that in mind, much more drastic action is going to be taken against Al-Qaeda and other groups than in OTL. A war, or maybe multiple wars is likely in this senario.

So, any thoughts?

Sounds like those Al-qaidapeople thought that just because it worked at Pearl Harbor everything would go according to plan. Wouldnt the people onboard strike back?

And i recall reading that the WTC can withstand hits from modern airplanes so i think the towers would take the hit and shrug it off. I am sure they build the towers with safty in mind
 
You are right. I interpret this site to be a place to play intellectual games that in the worst case are silly and ridiculous, normally intellectually stimulating adventures into what might have been and in the best of circumstances, leading to insight that drives a better understanding of history. "what is past is prologue".

I have not been here long, but I have learned that there are many things I do not know and many I want to know more about.

I am not drawing a direct comparison by any means between my personal experiences 10 years ago (which seem like yesterday) and the holocaust, but would you promulgate a thread about the holocaust that re-works events to make it different?

Few of us were here for Pearl Harbor, there are not many raw nerves left, and the pale of history has rendered that a memory, not an experience. Ten years can be but a moment if you live through something and wonder if a jet is flying towards the building 3 block away.

Again, I suggest that the POD be post 9/11. Lets explore the options available to us after the event and not re-write the event itself.


You do realise this isnt the first time we had a september 11 2001 scenario? Check the archives. I made a few questions as early as 06/07 i belive after reading 102 minutes. I think there was earlier posts also
 
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