DBWI: The Persian Empire becomes Islamic

Meerkat92

Banned
I know the different stripes of Buddhism are very different. However Islam through missionary zeal, economic self interest and royal proclamation still ended up becoming the dominate religion in Ceylon and the Malay peninsula.

Very true. I'm surprised that, once contact was made with the New World that Islam didn't take root over there as well (outside of a minority religion in a few Tarascan cities, of course). With all those increased opportunities for trade across the Pacific, I'm surprised that more native societies didn't adopt it more purely out of economic self-interest.
 
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OK, I really shouldn't have said that about the Romans. They are entitled to some respect. They, at least, have been around for centuries. But Aleuto-Kamchatkan is worthy of little respect, they have been around only a few decades and have been in decline ever since their revolution. But what do expect from godless barbarians?
OOC: I would assume the rivalry between Persia and Rome would continue in TTL.

Your ideological defence of passed-by exploitation systems cynically twisting a great ethical religious for base political purposes will be proven wrong when the Persian proletariat realizes how deeply deluded have they been for all these centuries by their own elites. Mazdak already knew that before Islam, and his followers have kept that flame alive in the century long-hardships of exile and struggle against the arrogant Khagans.
Muhammad again brought a light in the Southwestern Asia. Persian and Roman imperialists managed to keep that danger to their domination off, but that was not enough. Sharif Mbarashe discovered the laws of economic and social development and the revolution through the study of Islam applied his discovery in the really dis-alienated way of life the Socialist Alliance is creating in Northeastern Asia. Many Muslims and others are prepared to join our journey to true human progress, equality and freedom. Many nation like Rome and Tavatinsuyo, while keeping injustices supported by ideological backwariness and cynical self-interest, structurally show how much Socialism is needed to the current development of productive force, since they adopt a great deal of its organizational principles.
We are indeed no more than a small vanguard of what will necessarily happen in the rest of the World. Laissez-faire economy is still good for places like the Maori Emirates, and I know ho proud the Vinlanders are of their free initiative thing, though to my mind, it is really closer to cooperative socialism than to the big corporate exploitation we saw under the old Jakut tyrants.
More to the topic, it is probably lucky that Islam kept enough of its pristine purity, a feat that hardly would have been possible in the event of a great conquest overland. I can see most of the Persian nobility converting, while keeping its old values of birthrights and so on, and insuffating them into Islam.

OOC: Sorry if I'm derailing to much, I'm having fun with this. :D
 
Very true. I'm surprised that, once contact was made with the New World that Islam didn't take root over there as well (outside of a minority religion in a few Tarascan cities, of course). With all those increased opportunities for trade across the Pacific, I'm surprised that more native societies didn't adopt it more purely out of economic self-interest.

Norse Christians had a considerable advantage at the point, and the Inkas were quite outspoken in their weariness for it. However, Islam exists as a minority in some other places in North Pacific and South Atlantic coasts as well.
 
I know the different stripes of Buddhism are very different. However Islam through missionary zeal, economic self interest and royal proclamation still ended up becoming the dominate religion in Ceylon and the Malay peninsula.

The reason for Malay and Ceylon to convert was that they were trade based areas who needed trade to survive. Also you missed the souther part of Bharat Varsh (OTL South India), which is also Islamic as they to were trading nations and trade was their bloodline. If you see the Aryan/Eranian areas, they had much higher populations and thus could not be attacked by Arabs and since their lifeline was not trade, religion did not spread.
 
Your ideological defence of passed-by exploitation systems cynically twisting a great ethical religious for base political purposes will be proven wrong when the Persian proletariat realizes how deeply deluded have they been for all these centuries by their own elites. Mazdak already knew that before Islam, and his followers have kept that flame alive in the century long-hardships of exile and struggle against the arrogant Khagans.
Muhammad again brought a light in the Southwestern Asia. Persian and Roman imperialists managed to keep that danger to their domination off, but that was not enough. Sharif Mbarashe discovered the laws of economic and social development and the revolution through the study of Islam applied his discovery in the really dis-alienated way of life the Socialist Alliance is creating in Northeastern Asia. Many Muslims and others are prepared to join our journey to true human progress, equality and freedom. Many nation like Rome and Tavatinsuyo, while keeping injustices supported by ideological backwariness and cynical self-interest, structurally show how much Socialism is needed to the current development of productive force, since they adopt a great deal of its organizational principles.
We are indeed no more than a small vanguard of what will necessarily happen in the rest of the World. Laissez-faire economy is still good for places like the Maori Emirates, and I know ho proud the Vinlanders are of their free initiative thing, though to my mind, it is really closer to cooperative socialism than to the big corporate exploitation we saw under the old Jakut tyrants.
More to the topic, it is probably lucky that Islam kept enough of its pristine purity, a feat that hardly would have been possible in the event of a great conquest overland. I can see most of the Persian nobility converting, while keeping its old values of birthrights and so on, and insuffating them into Islam.

OOC: Sorry if I'm derailing to much, I'm having fun with this. :D

I see, destroying your entire agricultural base, suffering rampant shortages, making products 20+ years behind the times , being technologically inflexible because every technological change means a revamp of the whole plan is your idea of progress. :rolleyes: OOC: Real life results of Communist states.
 
Very true. I'm surprised that, once contact was made with the New World that Islam didn't take root over there as well (outside of a minority religion in a few Tarascan cities, of course). With all those increased opportunities for trade across the Pacific, I'm surprised that more native societies didn't adopt it more purely out of economic self-interest.

I can think of two reasons for this. The arabic Dhow was ill-suited for such long distance trade and exploration. Ship-building along the perimeter of the Indian ocean tended to be geared towards relatively short distances versus the transatlantic ships favored by the Norse, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons. Said nations would stake out the critical early settlements and commercial ties. The effect of which tended to funnel New world trade to Europe rather than Asia.

Secondly during this same time period, the principal Muslim trading states were in a state of constant conflict with one another and the coptic bloc over control of the spice trade and settler principalities of Oceania.
 
I see, destroying your entire agricultural base, suffering rampant shortages, making products 20+ years behind the times , being technologically inflexible because every technological change means a revamp of the whole plan is your idea of progress. :rolleyes: OOC: Real life results of Communist states.

What agricultural base are you talking about? :rolleyes: Check my country on a map showing latitudes, please.
Of course we have to control technology. Humans in Socialism are masters of their own destiny and no more enslaved to the historical forces they do not understand. Shortages have ensued the Revolution. Now those problems are mostly solved, at least in the most populated areas. Some places still suffer of the devastation the reactionaries brought on them. That will be fixed in next plans.
 
The reason for Malay and Ceylon to convert was that they were trade based areas who needed trade to survive. Also you missed the souther part of Bharat Varsh (OTL South India), which is also Islamic as they to were trading nations and trade was their bloodline. If you see the Aryan/Eranian areas, they had much higher populations and thus could not be attacked by Arabs and since their lifeline was not trade, religion did not spread.

But Bharat Varsh wasn't originally Buddhist, and my response was primarily geared towards the prospects of Islam spreading to the Buddhist states of Central Asia (beyond Persian Samarkand) or the Palas successor kingdoms of Bengal ;)
 
But Bharat Varsh wasn't originally Buddhist, and my response was primarily geared towards the prospects of Islam spreading to the Buddhist states of Central Asia (beyond Persian Samarkand) or the Palas successor kingdoms of Bengal ;)

Central Asia and Bengal are two entirely separate areas for I see no connection how Islam could spread to the two parts. plus the Central Asian 'Buddhists" were just for namesake, they were just mercenaries who had later incorporated it just to keep their lifestyle and maintain services with Aryavarth and Shenzhou, both of whom were predominantly Buddhists.

If Islam managed to conquer either of these areas, then and only then would nomads think of turning Islamic. But the thing to remember is that the Nomads became Buddhists because it allowed them to retain their culture as they were following the 'middle path' which Islam would not allow.

In regards to Bengal, the Bengalis were already fed up of the religious persecution by the now Vedic again Aryavarth by 1179 V.S. (1121 for Christians, 514 for Muslims), the year when Islam started spreading to Bharat varsh. Since the Buddhist identity was already strong, the Bengalis did not want to adopt another religion even though they were a trade faring nation.
 
What agricultural base are you talking about? :rolleyes: Check my country on a map showing latitudes, please.
Of course we have to control technology. Humans in Socialism are masters of their own destiny and no more enslaved to the historical forces they do not understand. Shortages have ensued the Revolution. Now those problems are mostly solved, at least in the most populated areas. Some places still suffer of the devastation the reactionaries brought on them. That will be fixed in next plans.

The land was far more self sufficient in food before the revolution which was 40 years ago. Shortages are getting worse by all accounts I have seen and the last four plans were supposed to fix things, why didn't they?
 
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(Yes, I know some Christian heretic movements dispute this view, but how are they treated?)

You really remind me of a quote from "The Thorvalds" where Brother Olaf says, "We respect people of all faiths be they Catholic, Muslim or... miscellaneous... (looking at Apu, the Punjab shopkeep)" where Apu replies, "I am Hindu, there are 400 million of us!"

I mean it's not like Vinland isn't the world's second largest economy or anything... Or there being about as many people identifying themselves as North Christian as there are Hindus... Oh... wait... :p
 
The land was far more self sufficient in food before the revolution which was 40 years ago. Shortages are getting worse by all accounts I have seen and the last four plans were supposed to fix things, why didn't they?

Yes, we make plans in order to fix things.
 
Very true. I'm surprised that, once contact was made with the New World that Islam didn't take root over there as well (outside of a minority religion in a few Tarascan cities, of course). With all those increased opportunities for trade across the Pacific, I'm surprised that more native societies didn't adopt it more purely out of economic self-interest.

Ahem. Islam DID take root in the new world, it was merely yanked out afterward. Here in Almazaria (OOC: Florida) we proudly celebrate both Moroccan and Hispanian traditions, even if the original settlers were forcibly converted to Catholicism in the late XVII century. Many of our Churches were once mosques, and retain the distinctive architecture. Our operahouses routinely show Malhun operas, and we dance to traditional Moroccan music every Easter. Some of our youths are even converting to Islam to get in touch with their roots. If it weren't for the Pious Inquiry, I think a full quarter of the continent would be Muslim.
 

Kosta

Banned
Ahem. Islam DID take root in the new world, it was merely yanked out afterward. Here in Almazaria (OOC: Florida) we proudly celebrate both Moroccan and Hispanian traditions, even if the original settlers were forcibly converted to Catholicism in the late XVII century. Many of our Churches were once mosques, and retain the distinctive architecture. Our operahouses routinely show Malhun operas, and we dance to traditional Moroccan music every Easter. Some of our youths are even converting to Islam to get in touch with their roots. If it weren't for the Pious Inquiry, I think a full quarter of the continent would be Muslim.

I don't know, I'm under the school of thought that old religions die hard. I'd think that the majority of Persians, while yes, being genuine converts, would still keep a lot of Zoroastrian traditions and terminology. They might call Shaitan "Angra Mainyu", they'd probably still continue celebrating Nouruz and other Zoroastrian holidays, and the Quran would have probably been translated into Avestan and other evolutions of the Persian language. Hey, who knows, maybe even Persian mosques might look more Sassanid than anything else. I mean think about it: the minority of Muslims remaining in Aígyptos celebrate various feast-days with us, and there's even I believe a cathedral dedicated to Saint John the Baptist where Muslims and Christians pray side-by-side. I don't think anything of what I said is too loony.

I haven't had to take world religious studies since Grade Nine: I went to a Christian school and not a public one. I don't know if the name of the Devil in Zoroastrianism was "Ahriman" or "Angra Mainya"; I had to look it up on Neopedia. Not like it matters; doesn't Persia have one of the biggest irreligious demographics in the World after Aleuto-Kamchatka?
 
Ahem. Islam DID take root in the new world, it was merely yanked out afterward. Here in Almazaria (OOC: Florida) we proudly celebrate both Moroccan and Hispanian traditions, even if the original settlers were forcibly converted to Catholicism in the late XVII century. Many of our Churches were once mosques, and retain the distinctive architecture. Our operahouses routinely show Malhun operas, and we dance to traditional Moroccan music every Easter. Some of our youths are even converting to Islam to get in touch with their roots. If it weren't for the Pious Inquiry, I think a full quarter of the continent would be Muslim.

I think you are greatly overstating that Islamic heritage. The initial settlers were certainly islamic given the religions prevelence amongst maritime trade and transit. But further settlement would have invariably shifted the religious demographics, as neither Hispania nor Morroco have Muslim pluaralities.
 
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