DBWI: The Beer Hall Putsch Hadn't Succeeded?

I know this is silly to ask, given the shaky state of the Weimar Government during 1923, but what if Hitler's coup in Munich and subsequent march on Berlin hadn't succeeded?

Could it have prevented the SA take over of the German Army in 1927?
 

Puzzle

Donor
Well Hitler and Ludendorff would probably have been executed along with the ringleaders for treason and murder. I'm not familiar enough with the history of the Weimar Republic to know who would benefit from that.
 
It would have delayed the start of World War II by at least five years, maybe even ten. It was partly the success of the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch that led to the Saar border incident of 1930; after their success in re-militarizing the Rhineland in 1928, the SA-dominated army got cocky and the French made them pay for it big-time.
 
It would delayed the start of World War II by at least five years, maybe even ten. It was partly the success of the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch that led to the Saar border incident of 1930; after their success in re-militarizing the Rhineland in 1928, the SA-dominated army got cocky and the French made them pay for it big-time.

It's very rare that you hear the Rhineland War called "World War 2". I understand a lot of Germans felt like it was an important rematch that showed them that authoritarianism and aggression wouldn't work for them, thus starting their slow shift back into a Western and Democratic orbit. However, it just wasn't important enough to be considered a "World War". The Anglo-Japanese War a decade down the line was bigger.

Back to the OP, the Beer Hall Putsch is one of those moments in history that, if you looked at it from an alternate timeline, you would certainly call it ASB. Hitler and co were almost cartoonishly evil, for the short period they lasted. I'd imagine without the Putsch, Weimar Germany would continue to limp along. The most likely scenario is that it would have recovered over the course of the 20s, ending with it being swept up in the many Socialist and Leftist movements across the world after 1928 and the crash.
 
It's very rare that you hear the Rhineland War called "World War 2". I understand a lot of Germans felt like it was an important rematch that showed them that authoritarianism and aggression wouldn't work for them, thus starting their slow shift back into a Western and Democratic orbit. However, it just wasn't important enough to be considered a "World War". The Anglo-Japanese War a decade down the line was bigger.

Back to the OP, the Beer Hall Putsch is one of those moments in history that, if you looked at it from an alternate timeline, you would certainly call it ASB. Hitler and co were almost cartoonishly evil, for the short period they lasted. I'd imagine without the Putsch, Weimar Germany would continue to limp along. The most likely scenario is that it would have recovered over the course of the 20s, ending with it being swept up in the many Socialist and Leftist movements across the world after 1928 and the crash.

To be fair there was a war going on in spain during the same time so I guess you could squint and call it a world war.


That said if were going to talk about world wars, then were going to have to talk about the communist invasion of poland that took place after Stalin died. That conflict cost the lives of over 30 million people. The russians still havent recovered from that disaster.
 
It's very rare that you hear the Rhineland War called "World War 2". I understand a lot of Germans felt like it was an important rematch that showed them that authoritarianism and aggression wouldn't work for them, thus starting their slow shift back into a Western and Democratic orbit. However, it just wasn't important enough to be considered a "World War". The Anglo-Japanese War a decade down the line was bigger.

Quite, if anything deserves the title of 'World War' the Japanese Wars definitely take it.

You have to admire their determination, few nations would try and tackle a country several times their own size and population, even if it was divided by factional infighting. The Sino-Jap War alone was incredibly bloody.

To be honest though, I feel the Anglo-Japanese War was the last stand of the British Empire. Maybe if Churchill had gotten into Downing Street before the war started then he might have made something of it. Unfortunately the Liberals and their half measures saw a very bloody and drawn out conflict that lasted far longer than it should have done.

When is a victory not a victory? When you pay with thousands of lives for a war that gains nothing. My Grandfather still hates the Japanese to this day. The latest advancements in the Commonwealth-Japanese Trade Pact are undoubtedly a good thing, but an entire generation will never forgive Japan for the war.

I think if the Soviets hadn't been so aggressive we'd probably not have gotten to the peace we have today so quickly. Common enemies make good ground for healing past wounds.

And on topic, I think it was rather embarrassing how the Germans let a jumped up Austrian Corporal take over their nation. I'm glad it was a short blip in their history, anything drawn out and we'd probably have found it lot harder to bring Italy to heel after Mussolini went full maniac.
 
Maybe totally unrelated, but how would a failed Beer Hall Putsch have affected the development of the atomic bomb?
 
Maybe totally unrelated, but how would a failed Beer Hall Putsch have affected the development of the atomic bomb?

It probally would have happened around the same time during the 1950s.
Nukes needed a real enemy to push their creation, the Japanese went crazy but that was a multiple nation dog pile. Between China, the brits and the american's the japanese were going down and every one knew it...

except the nuts in charge.

No it takes a real threat to get that kind of money spent, When Stalin died and he was replaced by that Psycho.... Well thats what prompted the creation of the bomb in the empire, In france and In america and even then it took more then 30 of the damned things before the soviets gave up.

Honestly I don't see nukes being made before 53 at the very least.
 
Germany was rather corrupt at the time so it highly likely that Hitler wouldn't have been convicted for the whole ordeal if he played his cards right.
 
Quite, if anything deserves the title of 'World War' the Japanese Wars definitely take it.

You have to admire their determination, few nations would try and tackle a country several times their own size and population, even if it was divided by factional infighting. The Sino-Jap War alone was incredibly bloody.

I've heard the Rhineland-War, the Anglo/America-Japanese War (aka the Pacific War to us Americans), and the final bloodbath of the Third Balkan War in the late 40's as grouped together as "The Second World Wars", but certainly not the Rhineland War alone.

I think if the Soviets hadn't been so aggressive we'd probably not have gotten to the peace we have today so quickly. Common enemies make good ground for healing past wounds.

And on topic, I think it was rather embarrassing how the Germans let a jumped up Austrian Corporal take over their nation. I'm glad it was a short blip in their history, anything drawn out and we'd probably have found it lot harder to bring Italy to heel after Mussolini went full maniac.

Yeah, once the Soviets started getting aggressive rearming the Chinese Communists (the death of their Mao in the war against the Japanese really set them back) the Allies switched from occupation to reconstruction pretty damn fast.

Can you imagine what the NSDAP would have done if they had managed to get a hold of Germany farther down the line, once they'd pulled off the Wirtschaftswunder? Five years and change running a shaky pseudo-democracy and they managed to convince everyone that picking a fight with France, the goddamn strongest military power on the continent (at the time), was a good idea.
 
It probally would have happened around the same time during the 1950s.
Nukes needed a real enemy to push their creation, the Japanese went crazy but that was a multiple nation dog pile. Between China, the brits and the american's the japanese were going down and every one knew it...

except the nuts in charge.

No it takes a real threat to get that kind of money spent, When Stalin died and he was replaced by that Psycho.... Well thats what prompted the creation of the bomb in the empire, In france and In america and even then it took more then 30 of the damned things before the soviets gave up.

Honestly I don't see nukes being made before 53 at the very least.

I'd agree with that. However if Germany hadn't had its flirt with Fascism more resources might have been available in Britain for its own Nuclear program. Japan was always going to become expansionist so even with a stable Germany the need will be there.

Perhaps the British would have finished their Nuclear Device first instead of the Americans? Either way, I do think someone was going to drop a Nuke on Japan. The attempted invasion was a failure from its inception.

You'd need some major butterflies to make the invasion a success, and without it Nukes are the only option for ending the Wars.

I've heard the Rhineland-War, the Anglo/America-Japanese War (aka the Pacific War to us Americans), and the final bloodbath of the Third Balkan War in the late 40's as grouped together as "The Second World Wars", but certainly not the Rhineland War alone.

We call it the Anglo-Japanese War here in the UK ;) When you guys finally got yourselves in gear (the USA, late for every war!), we'd already signed the 2 year ceasefire. When it picked up again we also refer to round 2 as the Pacific War or the Anglo/America-Japanese War.

Yeah, once the Soviets started getting aggressive rearming the Chinese Communists (the death of their Mao in the war against the Japanese really set them back) the Allies switched from occupation to reconstruction pretty damn fast.

Can you imagine what the NSDAP would have done if they had managed to get a hold of Germany farther down the line, once they'd pulled off the Wirtschaftswunder? Five years and change running a shaky pseudo-democracy and they managed to convince everyone that picking a fight with France, the goddamn strongest military power on the continent (at the time), was a good idea.

The thing is I think Mao might have been more resistant to Soviet pressures. He was more interested in turning China into a power in its own right. Had he lived China may not have tacked so close to the Soviet line.

And I ignore all of those nutters who think the Fascists could have pulled a comeback. The Germans, like the British, are not natural Fascists. The Beer Hall Putsch only succeeded due to force of arms, it was never popular with the majority of people.

There is a reason no Fascist party has ever been elected democratically. People aren't stupid. Even Italy turned against Mussolini when he started his 'New Rome' madness.
 
That said if were going to talk about world wars, then were going to have to talk about the communist invasion of poland that took place after Stalin died. That conflict cost the lives of over 30 million people. The russians still havent recovered from that disaster.

(OOC: Unless Poland happened to have few Liberty Primes laying about, there is no possible way that a war against Poland could cause more military causalities than they actually suffered in the absolute worst-case-scenario that was real life.)
 
(OOC: Unless Poland happened to have few Liberty Primes laying about, there is no possible way that a war against Poland could cause more military causalities than they actually suffered in the absolute worst-case-scenario that was real life.)

OOC: At no point did he say Poland fought alone. I imagine a NATO-esk coalition forming as a result of a post 1940 Soviet Invasion of Poland, one which possible dragged on a bit and cost millions of lives amongst the Eastern European populations. Depending on how long the War ran on for the numbers could be plausible. Don't forget, a hostile Germany isn't a factor in this TL. More forces are available to repel a Soviet Invasion. Its made more plausible by the death of Stalin as well.
 
well without the Rhineland war of 28 much of the later development would not have been possible.

The war showed that Germans can't be trusted (THEN) - The Sudetenland Germans (now calling them proudly "Sustaver" - odd mixture betwen Czech and GErman language) clearly separated themselves from THAT Germany and looked (again) to Austria as "protector of their rights). The following negotiations about Sudeten Status and ultimately the warming of Relations between Czechoslovakia and Austria became the core of the Central European Community (CEC) which later proved a healthy opposition to Soviet Aggression - The Wonder at the Vistula was only possible with Czech armored divisions cutting off Vlasovs "Central Front".

A Non agressive Germany probably would have led to continued bad relations between the old Habsburg posessions (I include Poland here because of Galicia)

In addition the 3rd Balkan war might have seen Bulgaro/Serbian sucess without the intervention of the CEC.

While the Rhineland war was not a World War it certainly was the first of the European wars of the mid century.

While on a world scale the Anglo(American)-Japanese Wars were certainly more important the 4 European wars (Rhineland/Soviet Polish/3rd Balkan/Prussian-French-Italian war) shaped Europe in the (again) leading continent in the World. Only with the elemination of the right and left extremes the democratic Center could use all of Europes human and natural resources to best effect.
 
well without the Rhineland war of 28 much of the later development would not have been possible.

The war showed that Germans can't be trusted (THEN) - The Sudetenland Germans (now calling them proudly "Sustaver" - odd mixture betwen Czech and GErman language) clearly separated themselves from THAT Germany and looked (again) to Austria as "protector of their rights). The following negotiations about Sudeten Status and ultimately the warming of Relations between Czechoslovakia and Austria became the core of the Central European Community (CEC) which later proved a healthy opposition to Soviet Aggression - The Wonder at the Vistula was only possible with Czech armored divisions cutting off Vlasovs "Central Front".

A Non agressive Germany probably would have led to continued bad relations between the old Habsburg posessions (I include Poland here because of Galicia)

In addition the 3rd Balkan war might have seen Bulgaro/Serbian sucess without the intervention of the CEC.

While the Rhineland war was not a World War it certainly was the first of the European wars of the mid century.

While on a world scale the Anglo(American)-Japanese Wars were certainly more important the 4 European wars (Rhineland/Soviet Polish/3rd Balkan/Prussian-French-Italian war) shaped Europe in the (again) leading continent in the World. Only with the elemination of the right and left extremes the democratic Center could use all of Europes human and natural resources to best effect.

Yes, I think without the fall of the extremists European would not be as prosperous. Then again, I think the only reason Mussolini lasted as long as he did was because no one took him seriously. His Greater Rome in Africa was probably the most ridiculous moves of the 20th Century. Did he really think that because Britain was tied up in the Far East that France/Germany would just ignore his blatant aggressions?

At least after the Rhineland War France had a bit of practice dealing with Fascist forces. I suppose that without the Rhineland War France's forces would have been less well prepared, along with Germany's... Even so I don't think the New Rome ideology was ever going to be success.

And I challenge the idea that Europe is the leading continent. The America's are slowly being galvanised by the US into a new powerhouse and the Commonwealth is still going strong, even after Canada almost left us. The Anglo-Sphere's combined market value is still *slightly* ahead of Europe (yes I'm adding the US into that even though it isn't in the Commonwealth. They are closer to us anyway!). The question is who will win the next round of lucrative deals from China. That will decide if it is the Euro-Century.
 
Alas, Hitler's cockiness when the SA eventually brought him to rule Germany was his downfall. Not only did the French build up the Maginot Line on their common border with Germany because of the fear of increased German militarism, but helped build a series of fortifications on the Belgian and Dutch frontiers with Germany--even in the supposedly "impenetrable" Ardennes Forest--that essentially bogged down the invading German armies in spring 1940. It didn't help the Germans that that Poles quietly turned over a commercial version and operating manual for the supposedly "secret" Enigma cipher machine to the British in 1936, and the British quietly set up a team to decode Enigma messages by the summer of 1939. As such, when the Germans attempted their invasion in 1940, they were quickly routed because the western Allies knew exactly how the Germans were going to do the invasion plan.

As for Asia, the Anglo-Japanese War did defeat Japan, but the Soviet Union couldn't continue to occupy the Kuril Islands and all of Sakhalin because the untimely death of Josef Stalin in 1947 from a plane crash nearly caused another Russian Civil War due to factions fighting for power. As such, the Red Army had to abandon both the Kurils and Sakhalin to an American/British occupying force because the Red Army was needed just to stop another civil war. In the end, it proved to be a GIGANTIC boon for Japan because once Sakhalin--now called Karafuto--and the Kurils returned to Japanese rule in 1960, within 20 years the waters around the Kuril Islands became one of the world's richest fishing grounds and they discovered huge oil and natural gas deposits on Karafuto, which meant Japan was far less affected by the OPEC oil embargo of the 1970's.
 
Strange how, even with almost 2 decades of rule (17 years) and military buildup, the Nazi party couldn't prepare itself enough for War. Any idea why, from a technical point of view?
 
Alas, Hitler's cockiness when the SA eventually brought him to rule Germany was his downfall. Not only did the French build up the Maginot Line on their common border with Germany because of the fear of increased German militarism, but helped build a series of fortifications on the Belgian and Dutch frontiers with Germany--even in the supposedly "impenetrable" Ardennes Forest--that essentially bogged down the invading German armies in spring 1940. It didn't help the Germans that that Poles quietly turned over a commercial version and operating manu...

OOC:It's already been established that the war was way earlier than 1940, happening in 1930 with a Germany that couldn't come close to mounting an invasion.
 
As for Asia, the Anglo-Japanese War did defeat Japan, but the Soviet Union couldn't continue to occupy the Kuril Islands and all of Sakhalin because the untimely death of Josef Stalin in 1947 from a plane crash nearly caused another Russian Civil War due to factions fighting for power. As such, the Red Army had to abandon both the Kurils and Sakhalin to an American/British occupying force because the Red Army was needed just to stop another civil war. In the end, it proved to be a GIGANTIC boon for Japan because once Sakhalin--now called Karafuto--and the Kurils returned to Japanese rule in 1960, within 20 years the waters around the Kuril Islands became one of the world's richest fishing grounds and they discovered huge oil and natural gas deposits on Karafuto, which meant Japan was far less affected by the OPEC oil embargo of the 1970's.

Yes, well. I wouldn't call the demilitarisation of the Kurils an occupation. Anglo-American forces were only there for a few weeks ensuring there wasn't anything on the islands that were dangerous. If the Soviets had been organised we wouldn't have stopped them taking it.

The Soviet actions towards the end of the War were purely self motivated anyway. The seizing of Manchuria was simply a way of giving the Chinese Communists enough land to realistically fight the Nationalists. Even during the power struggles after Stalin's death the apathy from the British and Americans following the botched invasion bloodbath of Japan allowed the Chinese Communists to seize power.

I heard there was an aborted attempt to retreat to Taiwan for the Nationalists but the plans fell through. Perhaps if it had succeeded the Communists would have been more motivated to invade the island. The Nationalists could never have held Taiwan anyway, and if the Fascist Nationalists were in charge of Taiwan I doubt the USA would have agreed to put bases there. Every Olympics the PRC demands that Taiwan not use their national flag but no one listens any more. Taiwan has been de facto independent for years.
 
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