DBWI: Stronger Romans

To be honest, can't imagine that the Latins would go too far. Even if we grant them a modicum of luck and have them beat the Samnites and unite the Italian peninsula, how much further can they go? The Mediterranean world is shaped like a hollow ring - almost the worst shape for power projection/consolidation. This is not even considering the Latins' dislike of seafaring (a fact remarked by the much more seagoing Etruscans). It doesn't seem likely that they would be able to take on, let alone defeat, the much more maritime cultures of Carthage or Greece.
 
To be honest, can't imagine that the Latins would go too far. Even if we grant them a modicum of luck and have them beat the Samnites and unite the Italian peninsula, how much further can they go? The Mediterranean world is shaped like a hollow ring - almost the worst shape for power projection/consolidation. This is not even considering the Latins' dislike of seafaring (a fact remarked by the much more seagoing Etruscans). It doesn't seem likely that they would be able to take on, let alone defeat, the much more maritime cultures of Carthage or Greece.

Indeed. The whole reason why the Samnite Realm was so stable was that it was effectively invincible as long as it stayed south of the Alps. As the disastrous abortive occupation of Transalpine Gaul showed, once possessing an open frontier, the Realm quickly grew overstretched and unable to defend its new holdings. Hence the focus on soft power for the Mediterranean, it was much cheaper and it got them everything they wanted anyways.
 
Better than trying to conquer Germania. At the time, the place was howling wilderness and insane woodsmen where it wasn't cattle herds and crazy farmers.
 
I think a stronger Rome is less of an implausibility than some of the TLs I've seen where Macedon conquers the Athenian League. I can't believe how many timelines I've seen that suggested if only Philip II wasn't killed in battle he could have created a dynasty that conquered the Near East. How was the king of some agrarian hinterland going to topple Athens?

(OOC: How Christianity converted the Roman Empire actually is something that strikes me as inconceivable.)

Right, the Persian conquest of Europa was inevitable :rolleyes:
That goes against the whole spirit of Alternate History

Better than trying to conquer Germania. At the time, the place was howling wilderness and insane woodsmen where it wasn't cattle herds and crazy farmers.

Again, just because the Persian failed to take Germania, doesn't mean uber-Romans couldn't do it.
 
OOC: I thought I established lasting Greek sphere in E. Europe? I assumed the Persian Empire was already in decline by the PoD.
 
Right, the Persian conquest of Europa was inevitable :rolleyes:
That goes against the whole spirit of Alternate History



Again, just because the Persian failed to take Germania, doesn't mean uber-Romans couldn't do it.
Hey, the Persians came to damn close. I mean trying to contain an offensive with a logistical line stretching from Media to Marcomanni had to be a bit difficult and they still managed to fight for years :cool:

OOC: I thought I established lasting Greek sphere in E. Europe? I assumed the Persian Empire was already in decline by the PoD.
OOC: Sorry, I was kinda joking on this post
 
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Anyways dunno about this 'Persian invasion of Europa' stuff. Is that cross pollination from DBWI? Anatolia has been solidly Greek for the past 2500 years, and despite the best efforts of Medinean tribal bands the Near East has more or less continuously been in their sphere as well.
 
Well, if even if you butterfly away the Etruscans (which would require butterflies the size of Mothra) I can't see them getting large enough to make any difference to the Aztec dominance of the world today.

I mean, ok, so you have (lets go all out) a single empire that covers all of Italy. Let's go further, it covers all of Europe. Is all of Europe going to be a match for the Aztecs? Once the Aztecs discover the new world (as Europe was known in the early days) they are going to have a single empire to conquer instead of collection of squabbling nations. That may help, but it's still a done deal. The Aztecs are just too powerful don't you think?
 
Anyways dunno about this 'Persian invasion of Europa' stuff. Is that cross pollination from DBWI? Anatolia has been solidly Greek for the past 2500 years, and despite the best efforts of Medinean tribal bands the Near East has more or less continuously been in their sphere as well.
OOC: I was joking in response to a previous post.

Well, if even if you butterfly away the Etruscans (which would require butterflies the size of Mothra) I can't see them getting large enough to make any difference to the Aztec dominance of the world today.

I mean, ok, so you have (lets go all out) a single empire that covers all of Italy. Let's go further, it covers all of Europe. Is all of Europe going to be a match for the Aztecs? Once the Aztecs discover the new world (as Europe was known in the early days) they are going to have a single empire to conquer instead of collection of squabbling nations. That may help, but it's still a done deal. The Aztecs are just too powerful don't you think?
Ok, lets not derail the thread; Aztecs?

Back on Topic:

I see it this way, if the Romans do come to control in at least the center (which would probably lead to control of the south) of Italy; they're gonna have to build a fleet even if its for defense. Then once they realize how much a navy is really worth they are going to start patrolling at least the east of the medy. Now, this will bring them into conflict with the Athenian League which pretty much dominated the east at the time.

Could they win? The odds are stacked against them, the Athenians had good relations with the people of Carthage and by this time they're cash flow was holding Egypt afloat. That's another formidable navy + a rather large army the Romans would be facing, and with the warmongering Gaulic Confederation to the north (which was already forming at this time) they would need to play their cards extremely right to last long in the ancient Mediterranean without being a neutral country without a large army or more than a coastal navy; which would at the very least, allow German and Gaullish hoards to overrun Rome.
 
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To be honest, can't imagine that the Latins would go too far. Even if we grant them a modicum of luck and have them beat the Samnites and unite the Italian peninsula, how much further can they go? The Mediterranean world is shaped like a hollow ring - almost the worst shape for power projection/consolidation. This is not even considering the Latins' dislike of seafaring (a fact remarked by the much more seagoing Etruscans). It doesn't seem likely that they would be able to take on, let alone defeat, the much more maritime cultures of Carthage or Greece.

I deem conquering the whole of the mediterreanean as impossible, history is my witness! A unified realm fosters stagnation (see the contemporary slow downfall of the Xin) and diversity administers a competitive and creative environment! Goods and innovations were allowed to flow relatively free and could penetrate the people's hearts and minds at all sides of the pond. Think of the great benefits the late greco-samnitic philosophers had on our thinking and most important the early sciences ... some may disagree, but that's the Pythagorean speaking out of me! ;)

[...] German and Gaullish hoards [...]
I dare you! ;) Be reminded, that we northeners were the ones who refined the once pretty bad wine we got from the southeners! If you want to talk about real beer-drinking barbarians look further at the east! :rolleyes:
 
I dare you! ;) Be reminded, that we northeners were the ones who refined the once pretty bad wine we got from the southeners! If you want to talk about real beer-drinking barbarians look further at the east! :rolleyes:
Maybe so, but this is thousands of years ago, at this time Germans were barely even farming and they looked south to the warmer and richer areas of Italy, hell if it wasn't for the war between the Confederate Gauls and the Germanic Tribal Kingdom we may have a German Italy today :eek:
 
Maybe so, but this is thousands of years ago, at this time Germans were barely even farming and they looked south to the warmer and richer areas of Italy, hell if it wasn't for the war between the Confederate Gauls and the Germanic Tribal Kingdom we may have a German Italy today :eek:
I can only imagine what that would have looked like.
 
Maybe so, but this is thousands of years ago, at this time Germans were barely even farming and they looked south to the warmer and richer areas of Italy, hell if it wasn't for the war between the Confederate Gauls and the Germanic Tribal Kingdom we may have a German Italy today :eek:

That's why we don't have a Great Kunig anymore ;) As soon as more than two German states band together somehow things get messed up! The south was too hot and dry anyway :p

But you're right, the technological prowess of the south and even that of the Gauls overshadowed everything the forefathers had achieved to this point. At least they've caught, apart from a bloody nose, some nice little ideas how the realms were run around the mediterranean (they were just a band of tribes with a self proclaimed kunig after all). Hadn't this part madman, part genius Claudewîh braught back those Greeks and Samnites he captured down there, the tribes would've probably never been able to organize themselves to the semi-stable states after the long war with the Gauls on the territory east of the Rhine that was left.
 
That's why we don't have a Great Kunig anymore ;) As soon as more than two German states band together somehow things get messed up! The south was too hot and dry anyway :p

But you're right, the technological prowess of the south and even that of the Gauls overshadowed everything the forefathers had achieved to this point. At least they've caught, apart from a bloody nose, some nice little ideas how the realms were run around the mediterranean (they were just a band of tribes with a self proclaimed kunig after all). Hadn't this part madman, part genius Claudewîh braught back those Greeks and Samnites he captured down there, the tribes would've probably never been able to organize themselves to the semi-stable states after the long war with the Gauls on the territory east of the Rhine that was left.
Do you think, if the Germanic's were able to defeat the Gauls that their would still be a drive to the east? I mean even if the Germanic's keep all land east of the Rhine, or even take some west of it; Gauland was even at this time (being a confederacy of tribes) quite populated so the Germanics would probably be forced to find land in the east anyway; as the north isn't to hospitable.
 
now lets get back on topic shall we? now, I can argue that the romans could of only stop the expansion of the Samnite League by intervening at the start. Yes, I mean the invasion of the Sidicini. It can be that the Campani could of tried to protect the Sidicini, and would of been beaten by the Samnite league. Then the Campani would go to the roman senate to beg for them to intervene in the war on the Campani side. The Romans, being those manipulative and ambitious scum that they are, would say that they would not do so because of their treaty with the Samnite League. This would force the Campani to surrender their lands, including the city of Capua, the most opulent city of the Italian Peninsula at the time. The romans would ask the Samnite League to stop attacking Campania. The Samnite League would refuse, and war would be declared. If the romans won the war, the Samnite League's lands would of been severely damaged due to pillaging, not to mention what would happen to the stability of the Samnite League . Not only that, the romans would of only gotten stronger from that, they would have the rich lands of the Campani, it could of also stabilized the Latin League. Due to the fear of retaliation by the romans if the members revolt or try to become independent. The Romans also could of taken the place of the Caudini tribe of the Samnite League. As in unite the Italian Peninsula. It would take 2 to 3 more wars to take over the Samnite League of course. But I don't know if the romans could take over the Mediterranean though. But they would need to drop the republic government to rule over the place for over a year.
 
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