DBWI: Shrunken Western World

[Kotka]

In our reality this is what most political scientists and sociologists consider to be part of the Western world whose characteristics for the most part include liberal democracy, economic freedom, secularism, individual and sexual freedom and most importanly, a considerable cultural influence by the United States and Western Europe.

What historical events could change this? How to make Western civilization smaller?

 

[M79]

Have the American Revolution fail then a series of regional secessions arise in the early 1800s while curtailing the 1848 revolutions substantially. Have Germany unite and dominate Europe but twist into a fascist monarchal state during the process with France humiliated and colonial hildings able to escape even earlier than OTL. Make the Ottomans far stronger somehow and able to push harder into Europe at almost any point but especially if they can take and hold Vienna in 1683 (or sooner?).

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

>Israel
>western

Nice try OP, find me one poly sci proff who actually thinks that.

 

[Kotka]

>Israel
>western

Nice try OP, find me one poly sci proff who actually thinks that.

Ummm like, most of them? Indded Israel wasn't considered as such until the European-Islamic League relations worsened in the 1980's, but today Israel is generally accepted based on the criteria described. I agree that alongst South Africa and Bulgaria it has the most cons not to be considered as such.

 

[Dolan]

liberal democracy

And South Africa + Rhodesia are practically dictatorial minority rule that enjoyed full support of US abd Western Europe.

Maybe have White Supremacy and Neo-Imperialism not being a large part of Western identity, that way they won't tolerate the South African and Many South American Regimes.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Ummm like, most of them? Indded Israel wasn't considered as such until the European-Islamic League relations worsened in the 1980's, but today Israel is generally accepted based on the criteria described. I agree that alongst South Africa and Bulgaria it has the most cons not to be considered as such.

Oh Europoor stuff. On this side of the pond we're still "sentimental" over USS Liberty and the Lebanon War.

 

[Sam R.]

what most political scientists and sociologists

Billy, if every dickhead in town was jumping off the overpass, would you?

 

[overoceans]

Delete

 

[CalBear]

Oh Europoor stuff. On this side of the pond we're still "sentimental" over USS Liberty and the Lebanon War.

Don't troll.

 

[AestheticAcid]

European micronations get to be in this broad vision of the "Western World" but Guyana and Suriname don't. What did they do to the majority of political scientists and sociologists? Did someone piss in their tea?

 

[Crazy Boris]

European micronations get to be in this broad vision of the "Western World" but Guyana and Suriname don't. What did they do to the majority of political scientists and sociologists? Did someone piss in their tea?

Albania being excluded but not the rest of the eastern side of the iron curtain strikes me as weird too. As does the exclusion of Haiti.

Also, given the criteria listed by OP, wouldn’t the Asian tigers and Japan kind of count? Not so much in the way of American/Western European influence but more in the departments of secularism, liberalism, democracy, economic freedom etc.

Honestly I think the west/east dichotomy is kind of an ambiguous and hazy concept. You could have a thousand definitions and none of them would be universally accepted.

 

[LuckyLuciano]

I think a lot of people didnt get that this was a double blind what if

 

[M79]

I think a lot of people didnt get that this was a double blind what if

Well saving for a 5-state South Africa, a largely intact USSR, a united Cyprus, an Ethiopea still united with Eritrea, a united India/Pakistan, and a Sinai Peninsula in apparently Israeli hands, the map is fairly close to OTL...

 

[More Than A Feeling]

>Israel
>western
Nice try OP, find me one poly sci proff who actually thinks that.

And South Africa + Rhodesia are practically dictatorial minority rule that enjoyed full support of US abd Western Europe.

Maybe have White Supremacy and Neo-Imperialism not being a large part of Western identity, that way they won't tolerate the South African and Many South American Regimes.

r/Whooosh

 

[Komnenos002]

Oh Europoor stuff. On this side of the pond we're still "sentimental" over USS Liberty and the Lebanon War.

I can't tell if you're rolling with the DBWI or not.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I can't tell if you're rolling with the DBWI or not.

OOC: I am. Are you saying that the mentioned episodes severely impacted US-Israel relations iOTL?

edit: basically, my intent is to dispute the map of "the west" in character. There's no scholarly consensus on the boundaries of the west iOTL so I doubt there'd be actual consensus iTTL either. As this is supposed to be an alt!alt history website there will be pedantics "um actually"ing the OPs definition just as there would be on this site if a similar thread was posted for real.