DBWI: Sealion never launched

Without Sealion Britain may have well capitulated. The Germans captured the majority of the British Expeditionary Force and nearly all of its material equipment at Dunkirk. Britain was in an extraordinarily weak state in the months following the debacle, and Hitler foolishly sought to press his advantage, particularly after Goering convinced him that the Luftwaffe could neutralize the royal air force and navy. The rest shall we say was history.
 
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Hmm if they hadn't lost all those units in Sealion Greece might not have given us the springboard we needed in the Med.

Although that said I've never quite understood how we kept greece in our camp and Italy ended up in the Russian camp, the geography always seems to get me.
 
Hmm if they hadn't lost all those units in Sealion Greece might not have given us the springboard we needed in the Med.

Although that said I've never quite understood how we kept greece in our camp and Italy ended up in the Russian camp, the geography always seems to get me.

Never underestimate a sufficiently talented fool.
 

CalBear

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Whoah, so, the Japanese might have been able to actually occupy an American territory? I wonder for how long. that would be just bizarre.


Depends. If you look at the plans the U.S. had in the 1930s they thought that the U.S. would have fight all the way across the Pacific to retake the Islands. The plan thought it would take a couple years, which seems silly today, but at the time it was a reasonable estimate. You need to keep in mind that this was before aircraft were seen as the decisive weapon of war.

I read an Alt History once that had the U.S. commander, a General MacArthur (interesting guy, serious WW I hero with like 6 Silver Stars), totally screwing up and letting his planes get caught on the ground. I thought it was a stretch, hard to imagine any American officer being that dumb, but I understand why the writer did it. He had to find some way to give the Japanese a chance.

When you look at what the Japanese did in China before Patton was sent there with First Army, having them holding an American territory (outside of the two Aleutian islands which were pretty much unpopulated at the time) could have been really nasty. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine that the Japanese would be so out of touch that they would commit war crimes against Americans. That would have been really stupid, especially considering how big a market the U.S. is for Japanese goods these days. If they had gone around lopping off PoW's heads or starving prisoners, the U.S. would NEVER have forgiven them.
 
Could even Stalin have screwed up bad enough for the Nazis to have gotten to Moscow in 1941? In 1942, maybe, but not 1941. :confused:

That depends on how many generals he had shot. The big question is whether he might actually have thought the Germans enough of a threat to relocate his armament industry in time. As it is he lost the Leningrad and Ukrainian plants due to complacency. Those crack troops in the first wave could have made a real difference, not to mention the Fallschimjager trapped on the Isle of Wight.
 
Depends. If you look at the plans the U.S. had in the 1930s they thought that the U.S. would have fight all the way across the Pacific to retake the Islands. The plan thought it would take a couple years, which seems silly today, but at the time it was a reasonable estimate. You need to keep in mind that this was before aircraft were seen as the decisive weapon of war.

I read an Alt History once that had the U.S. commander, a General MacArthur (interesting guy, serious WW I hero with like 6 Silver Stars), totally screwing up and letting his planes get caught on the ground. I thought it was a stretch, hard to imagine any American officer being that dumb, but I understand why the writer did it. He had to find some way to give the Japanese a chance.

When you look at what the Japanese did in China before Patton was sent there with First Army, having them holding an American territory (outside of the two Aleutian islands which were pretty much unpopulated at the time) could have been really nasty. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine that the Japanese would be so out of touch that they would commit war crimes against Americans. That would have been really stupid, especially considering how big a market the U.S. is for Japanese goods these days. If they had gone around lopping off PoW's heads or starving prisoners, the U.S. would NEVER have forgiven them.

Is that the one where the Japanese take Malaya, the Dutch East Indies and most of New Guinea? It's an entertaining read but full of holes. He has the man who identified the points the Japanese would land in Thailand and Malaya prewar then completely stuff up the whole campaign.
 
Is that the one where the Japanese take Malaya, the Dutch East Indies and most of New Guinea? It's an entertaining read but full of holes. He has the man who identified the points the Japanese would land in Thailand and Malaya prewar then completely stuff up the whole campaign.


I remember that one, they took Burma I think as well.

Damn i can't remember the name of those specialist commando types he invented though, anyone got any idea?

And while on the subject what did happen to that scottish bloke that spent time with the Aussies, in that fic TL became a tactical genius.
 
That depends on how many generals he had shot. The big question is whether he might actually have thought the Germans enough of a threat to relocate his armament industry in time. As it is he lost the Leningrad and Ukrainian plants due to complacency. Those crack troops in the first wave could have made a real difference, not to mention the Fallschimjager trapped on the Isle of Wight.

Erm, he did think that. People tend to miss that the Leningrad Siege and loss of Ukraine didn't actually impact Soviet industry as much as it's made out to have done. He moved a *lot* of industry out to beyond the Urals and the Moscow region, and his doing this arguably bought the USSR a great deal of time before it finally collapsed the invasion of its territory in 1943. The only reason it did not in fact do this in 1941 is how badly prepared for a major war it was then. And of course losing all its trucks......
 
When you look at what the Japanese did in China before Patton was sent there with First Army, having them holding an American territory (outside of the two Aleutian islands which were pretty much unpopulated at the time) could have been really nasty. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine that the Japanese would be so out of touch that they would commit war crimes against Americans. That would have been really stupid, especially considering how big a market the U.S. is for Japanese goods these days. If they had gone around lopping off PoW's heads or starving prisoners, the U.S. would NEVER have forgiven them.
Which leads to another question. We know what Patton did in China, and how he almost forced the Japanese out. Would have been considered for the European front? If so, could he repeat his performance in Europe?

EDIT:About that story mentioned earlier-I read it, it had quite a few plot holes, but at least he balanced it out-by turning it from a Japan-wank to an Ameri-wank within a matter of days. I mean given the circumstances of TTL, I would have thought that the Japanese would have had better pilots, and would have gotten a closer to equal battle in terms of carrier losses.
 
Depends. If you look at the plans the U.S. had in the 1930s they thought that the U.S. would have fight all the way across the Pacific to retake the Islands. The plan thought it would take a couple years, which seems silly today, but at the time it was a reasonable estimate. You need to keep in mind that this was before aircraft were seen as the decisive weapon of war.

I read an Alt History once that had the U.S. commander, a General MacArthur (interesting guy, serious WW I hero with like 6 Silver Stars), totally screwing up and letting his planes get caught on the ground. I thought it was a stretch, hard to imagine any American officer being that dumb, but I understand why the writer did it. He had to find some way to give the Japanese a chance.

When you look at what the Japanese did in China before Patton was sent there with First Army, having them holding an American territory (outside of the two Aleutian islands which were pretty much unpopulated at the time) could have been really nasty. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine that the Japanese would be so out of touch that they would commit war crimes against Americans. That would have been really stupid, especially considering how big a market the U.S. is for Japanese goods these days. If they had gone around lopping off PoW's heads or starving prisoners, the U.S. would NEVER have forgiven them.

Yes, I know, but occupation of major civilian section, like oh, say Manilla, or Corrigador, really opens the floodgates, we're talking women and children in Imperial Japanese custordy for years on end.

Japan would be a paraiah nation for decades!
 
I remember that one, they took Burma I think as well.

Damn i can't remember the name of those specialist commando types he invented though, anyone got any idea?

And while on the subject what did happen to that scottish bloke that spent time with the Aussies, in that fic TL became a tactical genius.

Wait, is that the one where McClusky got luck and sank three Japanese carrier in the matter of minutes? :confused:

Marc A
 
What is "DBWI"?
It is when you are regarding our own reality as an alternate world of some different reality were things gone in a different path (like in this specific thread when the OP is posting from the POV of a person from a world were Hitler did launch operation Sealion).
 
Erm, he did think that. People tend to miss that the Leningrad Siege and loss of Ukraine didn't actually impact Soviet industry as much as it's made out to have done. He moved a *lot* of industry out to beyond the Urals and the Moscow region, and his doing this arguably bought the USSR a great deal of time before it finally collapsed the invasion of its territory in 1943. The only reason it did not in fact do this in 1941 is how badly prepared for a major war it was then. And of course losing all its trucks......

You're forgetting 1942 (like just about everybody). I mean, sure, 1943 was much more impressive, but 1942 was the tide turner here. The year the Soviets liberated Leningrad and drove all the way to the Narva. The year of the German drive across the Dniepr (which in my opinion they should have never crossed in the first place) towards Kharkov and the subsequent encirclement. The year the British failed to take Sicily, the year Finland got peace on 1939-borders (for the good that it did them the few years they had left). But no, everyone always talks about 1943. Just because the Brits and the Yanks landed at Calais that year and the Soviets drove through Belarus and the Baltics doesn't mean it's perfect. Germany didn't surrender until early '44, after all.

Anyway, even if the Germans ended up taking Moscow, I think it would have ended up the same way as Smolensk: successful encirclement that is broken and repaired several times and then stays intact, and brutal street fighting that lasts until the last Russian surrenders. Then, the Germans would no longer have the willpower to advance. And worse, this is Moscow. Russia's heart. The reason the Germans won at Kiev and at Leningrad (although the latter can be disputed) was that Stalin refused to let troops in from Moscow. Moscow is the centre of Russia, any battle for it, even if the Germans won, would be followed by a successful counteroffensive.

The real question is where the war goes from there, if Britain isn't able to mount an offensive yet because of a strengthened German-occupied France (and a more pro-German Petain government). Perhaps Stalin might contemplate peace if it doesn't appear the Americans and British are going to help soon and if the Germans, with all those generals they lost in Britain, can mount an offensive with any chance of success. Probably still in the Kharkov sector, although I doubt that city will be Russian anymore if Moscow falls. Rostov? Voronezh? Kursk? Perhaps even some city or region east of that, although I don't know enough Russian cities to say something about that. Or, if Hitler's feeling really crazy, a drive to Archangelsk. :p
 
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