DBWI: Sassanids Don't Reclaim Persia

spendabuck

Banned
I was recently in Persia studying the ruins of Persepolis, where I was reminded that, for a period of time, Persia came under occupation of the Islamic Arabs until the Sassanids/Li's, with military support from China, returned in the early 700s. Seeing how much the Persian 'Empire' and their Chinese lieges shaped the history of the Middle East throughout the Middle Ages, I was wondering how history would have been effected if China had not supported the last Sassanids. Would the Sassanids still be able to reclaim their empire from the Muslims? Would Islam have been more successful? And how would the Middle East look without as much cultural and religious influence from the Chinese?
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
You probably wouldn't see the Roman reconquest of their eastern territories without the Sassanid distraction and the collapse of the Caliphate.
 

spendabuck

Banned
You probably wouldn't see the Roman reconquest of their eastern territories without the Sassanid distraction and the collapse of the Caliphate.
That's a good point; we could see a much more Arabic Holy Land as opposed to the current Hellenistic culture in the region. Since we're talking about the region, I wonder how the Copts would do; with the Sino-Persian invasion from the east, they were able to successfully revolt and establish the Christian Kingdom of Egypt.

Also, do you think that, without the Sassanid invasion, the Arabs could have conquered Byzantium, as they temporarily did with Persia?
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
That's a good point; we could see a much more Arabic Holy Land as opposed to the current Hellenistic culture in the region. Since we're talking about the region, I wonder how the Copts would do; with the Sino-Persian invasion from the east, they were able to successfully revolt and establish the Christian Kingdom of Egypt.

Also, do you think that, without the Sassanid invasion, the Arabs could have conquered Byzantium, as they temporarily did with Persia?

Hmm... Doubtful. There are significant geographical barriers in their way, like the Aegean and the Straits of Marmara. Plus there's Constantinople with the Theodosian Walls.

The Arabs may take Anatolia but that's the extent of it. Even then, I think it likely that Anatolia would eventually fall back into Roman hands when the Caliphate goes through a period of instability or even collapse, similar to OTL's Roman reconquest of the Levant.

OoC: I think eventually the Romans in this situation would ultimately reclaim Egypt. They'd effectively surround the country at that point.
 
The crusades get butterflied away, it was the arabs weakness after the roman reconquest of the east that gave the pope a convienant target for a bunch of really violent knights. This led to the knowlege and riches of north africa going north to europe which created the renasance. This reconquest ended up creating the renasance. With this wealth and knowlege they bought goods, when england found itself outside of all this trade they got desperate enough to sail west and discovered north and south Atlantis. With out the wealth from the new world the catholic church would have crushed the prodastint reformation that england helped bankroll with their newly aquired wealth. This bankrolling ended up creating finacial issues which led the north Atlantians...my people to rebel.

No rebellion no USA, no USA no internet, no modern examples of republics to prove that the concept works, which means feaudalism and authocracy last even longer. It would be a poorer, less educated less free world. I shudder the thought.
 
The crusades get butterflied away, it was the arabs weakness after the roman reconquest of the east that gave the pope a convienant target for a bunch of really violent knights. This led to the knowlege and riches of north africa going north to europe which created the renasance. This reconquest ended up creating the renasance. With this wealth and knowlege they bought goods, when england found itself outside of all this trade they got desperate enough to sail west and discovered north and south Atlantis. With out the wealth from the new world the catholic church would have crushed the prodastint reformation that england helped bankroll with their newly aquired wealth. This bankrolling ended up creating finacial issues which led the north Atlantians...my people to rebel.

No rebellion no USA, no USA no internet, no modern examples of republics to prove that the concept works, which means feaudalism and authocracy last even longer. It would be a poorer, less educated less free world. I shudder the thought.
This is a DBWI.
 
This is a DBWI.
OOC:I think he's aware of it,but the scenario he crafted is simply stretching it in my opinion.I suggest we ignore his post.I presume that in the scenario where the Muslims are pushed back this hard the ERE would retake the Exarchate of Africa(the exarchate only fell at the end of the 698 afterall).The rest of North of Africa not under ERE control is under the control of Christian berber tribes IIRC,so there wouldn't be any crusade in North Africa.If the Western Christians have the spare energy,there will also most likely be fighting the Saxons instead.
 
Last edited:

spendabuck

Banned
OOC: I feel like West is not aware of the butterfly effect, so we'll just ignore his post. Also, for Egypt, I was thinking that they become independent for a while and later become vassals or tributaries of the Byzantines.

IC: I just realized that, with an Islamic Holy Land, the Crusades (if not butterflied away) would probably be more focused there against the Muslims as opposed to the Asatru in Northern Europe. This could lead to the Asatru faith becoming stronger (I'm not saying it's weak, as it is the main religion of much of Scandinavia [save for Denmark and Geatia, which are Christian] and has a large following in the British Isles as well). How would this affect the history of Northern Europe?
 
OOC: How does less Muslim power weakening christian Europe make the northern pagan religion survive? Honestly sometimes I have to wonder...
 

spendabuck

Banned
OOC: How does less Muslim power weakening christian Europe make the northern pagan religion survive? Honestly sometimes I have to wonder...
OOC: I'm just reasoning with the butterfly effect really; if it seems too implausible though, it can be retconned.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
OOC: I feel like West is not aware of the butterfly effect, so we'll just ignore his post. Also, for Egypt, I was thinking that they become independent for a while and later become vassals or tributaries of the Byzantines.

IC: I just realized that, with an Islamic Holy Land, the Crusades (if not butterflied away) would probably be more focused there against the Muslims as opposed to the Asatru in Northern Europe. This could lead to the Asatru faith becoming stronger (I'm not saying it's weak, as it is the main religion of much of Scandinavia [save for Denmark and Geatia, which are Christian] and has a large following in the British Isles as well). How would this affect the history of Northern Europe?

OOC: The OTL concept of Crusades is likely butterflied away with OP's PoD. Most likely the Norse are converted much like OTL. There might be wars against the Baltic Pagans but they'd definitely would look different from OTL.
 
OOC: I'm just reasoning with the butterfly effect really; if it seems too implausible though, it can be retconned.
OOC: I would say increasing the power and agency of Christiandom makes such more impossible than it was in OTL, where the conversions still happened. Although maybe completely random circumstances cause the Asatru religion to go through some- Oh! Posit for a moment that a religious philosopher, some kind of Mani of the North, formalizes and creates a very strong faith using his charisma and spirituality- then you will have two organized Indo-European religious traditions surviving instead of one. This person may not even be an IE, he could be a Urali, which would increase the agency of said people. Imagine a world where Christianity's competitor comes from the North, rather than the South- where circumstances may be the same, such as many faiths practiced in some great melting pot of cultures that is itself surrounded by wasteland just as Mecca is in Arabia, but in the north instead. Doesn't that sound cool?
Oh, also, if the Caliphate breaks maybe Ethiopia might be able to expand much more- or, alternatively, maybe the Caliphate could become exclusively a naval power, and spread more into east Africa, India, and Southeast Asia.
 

spendabuck

Banned
OOC: I would say increasing the power and agency of Christiandom makes such more impossible than it was in OTL, where the conversions still happened. Although maybe completely random circumstances cause the Asatru religion to go through some- Oh! Posit for a moment that a religious philosopher, some kind of Mani of the North, formalizes and creates a very strong faith using his charisma and spirituality- then you will have two organized Indo-European religious traditions surviving instead of one. This person may not even be an IE, he could be a Urali, which would increase the agency of said people. Imagine a world where Christianity's competitor comes from the North, rather than the South- where circumstances may be the same, such as many faiths practiced in some great melting pot of cultures that is itself surrounded by wasteland just as Mecca is in Arabia, but in the north instead. Doesn't that sound cool?
Oh, also, if the Caliphate breaks maybe Ethiopia might be able to expand much more- or, alternatively, maybe the Caliphate could become exclusively a naval power, and spread more into east Africa, India, and Southeast Asia.
OOC: That's a really good idea. The religion could be a syncretism between Norse, Baltic, Slavic, and Finno-Ugric mythology, with various elements of Christianity incorporated as well.
 
OOC: That's a really good idea. The religion could be a syncretism between Norse, Baltic, Slavic, and Finno-Ugric mythology, with various elements of Christianity incorporated as well.
OOC: Maybe as an antithesis of Islam it could be more aggressively polytheistic or aspect based. The religion could take a very strong position that the minor gods and spirits of the world must be appeased and their help cannot be ignored.
 
Top