DBWI: Rome Remains Christian

spendabuck

Banned
Many people seem to be unaware that, for a while, the Roman Empire adopted Christianity, beginning with Constantine converting to Christianity (though many believe he was a follower of Sol Invictus) and ending with the reforms of Julian, which reinstalled the Hellenistic pantheon. I found this really interesting, so I wanted to ask: What would happen if the Roman Empire remained Christian until its fall?
 
This would have been the worst possible desaster ever for christianity. Becoming state religion would immediately lead to a massive romanization of christianity. The original ideology of Petrus and Paulus would have been gone forever. Christianity might turn into a monster by picking and combining the bad elements of Judaism and Romanism. It would not be the peaceful, open and tolerant religion with multiple branches we have today. I doubt all 15 gospels would have survived all over the world and coexist peacefully. I also doubt that the bishop of Constantinople, Alexandria and of Ctesiphon would be a women.

Christianity instrumentalized by roman politicians would have been perverted and transformed into something, Jesus never intended.

And last but not least, 1500 years later, some stupid hiostorians would claim, that christianity was the reason for the Fall of Rome. Well, we know for sure, that Rome fell, because we romans acted like true romans have to act. Until we ruined ourselves.
 
And last but not least, 1500 years later, some stupid hiostorians would claim, that christianity was the reason for the Fall of Rome. Well, we know for sure, that Rome fell, because we romans acted like true romans have to act. Until we ruined ourselves.

As someone from "Borea"(as you ppl say), a region known for it's humor, I applaud this guy.

This is literally the most adult way to admit the Romans partied themselves into oblivion i.e raved to the grave.
 

spendabuck

Banned
This would have been the worst possible desaster ever for christianity. Becoming state religion would immediately lead to a massive romanization of christianity. The original ideology of Petrus and Paulus would have been gone forever. Christianity might turn into a monster by picking and combining the bad elements of Judaism and Romanism. It would not be the peaceful, open and tolerant religion with multiple branches we have today. I doubt all 15 gospels would have survived all over the world and coexist peacefully. I also doubt that the bishop of Constantinople, Alexandria and of Ctesiphon would be a women.

Christianity instrumentalized by roman politicians would have been perverted and transformed into something, Jesus never intended.

And last but not least, 1500 years later, some stupid hiostorians would claim, that christianity was the reason for the Fall of Rome. Well, we know for sure, that Rome fell, because we romans acted like true romans have to act. Until we ruined ourselves.

I'm not denying that that could've happened, but it might not have; look at Persia. After they adopted Christianity, it wasn't 'Persianized'; it still, for the most part, stayed true to the teachings of Petrus and Paulus, and while encouraging conversion, they never forced non-Christians in Persia to convert; Zoroastrianism is still the second largest religion in Persia after all.
 

Jasen777

Donor
It's not very likely to be honest. Christianity was always a top down imposition, the people were never really into it in any real way.
 

spendabuck

Banned
It's not very likely to be honest. Christianity was always a top down imposition, the people were never really into it in any real way.
I wouldn't say that people 'weren't into Christianity', seeing as it's considered one of the five main world religions; at least 3 Roman emperors were Christian, and many countries today are predominately Christian, such as Armenia, Abyssinia, and Persia.
 
I'm not denying that that could've happened, but it might not have; look at Persia. After they adopted Christianity, it wasn't 'Persianized'; it still, for the most part, stayed true to the teachings of Petrus and Paulus, and while encouraging conversion, they never forced non-Christians in Persia to convert; Zoroastrianism is still the second largest religion in Persia after all.

The persian empire is a bad example. This empire always had a very decentralized structure where multiple organisations and political systems coexisted. There was never a process of "Persianization". At least not a strong one. Not so in the roman empire with a very centralistic organisation and tradition. Christianity was and is very decentral and diverse. Paulus tried to standardize the christian communities a bit, but fortunately he failed dramatically. 100 years after his death we still had dozens of different christianities, cults, gospels and opinions about Jesus, God and mankind.

A romanized christianity leading the roman empire must trend to standardize and centralize, like the romans always did. The persians never. The different christian cults would start to battle each other. Worst case the very fundamentalistic chatolicism would win and burn all gospels not fitting into their narrow world view. Imagine, if just 4-5 gospels survive? If roman bishops with the mindset of a roman magistrate turn the world into a slaughterhouse in the name of God. I am sure, they even would finally elect one bishop as leader, in order to standardize and control everything, everywhere. Perhaps the bishop of Constantinople or Rome. What a desaster! Christianity would had lost the diversity and freedom, which made it once great and compelling.

But, thank God, christianity never became the roman state religion.

Well, this new christian cult, founded by a guy named Muhammad of Medina spreads very well and fast. Who knows where this will end up.
 
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spendabuck

Banned
You bring up a good point. I could imagine the Roman emperors claiming to be 'God's representative on Earth' to make up for not being able to claim descent from the Roman gods; from there, the Emperor's will would be interpreted as God's will, and I can't imagine what that could lead to.

On a different topic, what would the religious makeup of the world look like? I can't imagine a world without the Druidic Council's influence over the Briton, Pictish, and Gallic kingdoms of the west, or the Roman debates on ideas such as religious syncretism or the veneration of the Caesars. Similarly, I can't picture a non-Christian Persia or Arabia, or the influence of the Christian Reconquests in the 12-1500s.
 
The inevitability of the "traditional" (even that is a misnomer, there was very little "traditional" about what replaced Christianity either, despite what Julian The Great claimed) religion trumping Christianity has always irked me. If Roman emperors remained Christian, then Christianity would continue to spread. The reason being is Christian emperors put a preference for bueareactaric position on Christians, in the same way Julian had a preference for choosing non-Christians over Christians. The effect of that is, if you're an ambitious bureacrat who wants to get good posts in the empire, you are going to convert to the religion of the guy handing out the posts, and do whatever else is necessary to put yourself in a good position to advance through the bureacracy.

So really, all you have to do is keep Julian from coming to power, which shouldn't be that hard. Just have Constantius not die during the civil war, and Julian is going to get crushed. You won't have any of his brilliant policies encouraging infighting within different factions of the church, and banning Christians from teaching the classics, which is crucial for children of the elite. That he was able to restructure "traditional" religion into a semi-coherent pantheon (partly influenced by the Christianity he apparently despised), was a small miracle in and of itself.
 
A centralized christian authority who demands absolute obedience would've probably spelled the end of the world's oldest clubs and guilds too. The many Mysteries were not just religions in their oldest incarnations, before many of the ideas went more public, but they also served craftsmen and other peoples and gave them bargaining power. The Mysteries of Trophoneus for example would become the oldest extant mason's guild. The Mithraic Mysteries served for soldiers and family to meet and celebrate, as well as served as a guild. This would've definitely set back labor for a while.
 
The reason being is Christian emperors put a preference for bueareactaric position on Christians, in the same way Julian had a preference for choosing non-Christians over Christians. The effect of that is, if you're an ambitious bureacrat who wants to get good posts in the empire, you are going to convert to the religion of the guy handing out the posts, and do whatever else is necessary to put yourself in a good position to advance through the bureacracy.

Exactly! This way more and more male noble romans became christians. A religion of slaves and females (both without any political influence) so far.

Constantine was no christian. Forget his last minute baptism! Constantine always instrumentalized christianity. Nothing more and nothing less. But unfortuenately his wife and therefore his sons were christians. And from now on every sycophant in this empire became a good christian by very good reasons. Well he became, whatever this sycophant (also an educated roman magistrate) thought, a christian should look like, in front of the emperor.

Constantine and his successors also showed great interest in theological issues. They themselves invoked and presided councils discussing important theological questions. Of course, the intention of a roman emperor was, to control the situation, implement himself as leader of christianity, instrumentalize religion and finally agree upon the one and only roman opinion supported by the emperor. Centralism as usual.

Fortunately, Julianus stopped this farce. I am afraid, that the roman emperors would not be succesful in controlling christianity longterm.

Imagine, how much christianty could have been perverted, by these roman emperors and all these sycophants following the emperors. A romanized christianity, with a central authority and one (christian emperor) cult harmonized all over the world. Enforced by the gladius, if needed. Again as usual. Even if fully unchristian.

On the other side, I doubt, the roman emperors really could have been succesful to implement themselves as the one and only leader of chrstianity. I expect, that these damn bishops gonna start to undermine the absolute authority of the emperors.

PS: OOC: I even doubt that Theodosius The Little was a true christian. He was perhaps just another roman emperor failing dramatically to control the spirits he cited.
 
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As a Child Psychologist, I cannot help but note how many modern practices have their roots in religious/shamanic practices, particularly Germanic Seithe (Jung, after all was a practicing Seideman) but also treatments based on Vinlandic tribal vision quests (highly recomended for adolecents) as well as various Delphic and Druidic practices.

Having these practices wiped out by a 'one true faith' might mean we would resort to something truely barbaric, like treating children with pharmaceuticals and marginalizing kids as abnormal rather than harnessing their insights for the good of society.
 
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