DBWI: Reverse India and Europe's places in history

What I mean is this: concoct a scenario where the European subcontinent is where the Industrial Revolution and the Enlightenment occur. Europe also must be divided into several nations, which are the ones who go about colonizing the rest of the world during the Age of Imperalism. One of these European countries must consolidate all of India into one colony, which upon gaining independence roughly sixty years ago (give or take) splits into two or three states, that are due to religious tensions, always on the verge of war.
Any takers?
 

mowque

Banned
ASB, just not going to happen.

Quite frankly , Europe is far to divided. As India has shown, you need political diversity not geographic mayhem. I mean, at most i can see them taking over North Africa...maybe. But the Industrial Rev.? :p
 
To be fair, the industrial revolution traces its origins back to southern Song China, which was crucial in the later spread of industrialisation around the region and the second industrial revolution in the Kaliyuga 4600's and 4700's. There really wasn't any comparable situation in the West before that date, so you would have to somehow stop the Song revolution.

As for Europe, I'm skeptical due to the frequency of epidemics and frequent wars in that regions history. The backward feudal system and the severe division would make it difficult. The wealth of Europe was hoarded by absolute kings, lords, popes, antipopes and such, and what little technical innovation there was was just the rediscovery of Greek and Roman achievements (most of which had already been discovered by the more technical and literate Arab world).
 
The only way I could see Europe not spiraling down the drain is to somehow stop Rome from falling, but then you don't get "political diversity". Without unity, either imposed from Rome or the Kaliyuga Empire or whatever, Europe can't be anything but a patchwork of self-destructive fiefdoms and plague-ridden backwaters.

I suppose you could have some disaster (another plague? barbarian invasion?) take out the Song and the Indian subcontinent, and then just hope that the butterflies resulting from that mean that Europe eventually manages to cobble together some crude semblance of industry? Maybe right around the present day you'd see some small-scale textile mills on Great Britain island, with the channel preventing all of the other warlords from just pillaging the factories and torching them, but it's still a pretty grim, squalid scenario.
 
It is so simple, have gunpowder be created in Europe. It can be theorized that with gunpowder, regional leaders can amass armies in a short time with little training to solidify their territory.

During that, create the middle class merchants (ooc: called burghers)

OOC: That is what happened, those two events amongst a few killed feudalism and the rest is history.
 
Gunpoiwder alone won't be enough. The Islamic civilisations had gunpowder as early as China and India, and it didn't do them any good in the long run.

Ultimately, I suspect the problem is philosophical. You need a certain habit of thought to industrialise. Enlightenment and science only grow in fertile soil. The European mind is too focused on a unitary core to deal wioth the complexities of reality. If you believe in a personal single deity, you can always just say 'God wills it' and critical enquiry is discouraged. Not to mention *personalising* the world soul is a very unhealthy attitude for your peace of mind (which is where all the wars come in).
 
Gunpoiwder alone won't be enough. The Islamic civilisations had gunpowder as early as China and India, and it didn't do them any good in the long run.

Ultimately, I suspect the problem is philosophical. You need a certain habit of thought to industrialise. Enlightenment and science only grow in fertile soil. The European mind is too focused on a unitary core to deal wioth the complexities of reality. If you believe in a personal single deity, you can always just say 'God wills it' and critical enquiry is discouraged. Not to mention *personalising* the world soul is a very unhealthy attitude for your peace of mind (which is where all the wars come in).

*points to the fact that he mentioned the burghers*
 

Deleted member 1487

Look in OTL, Europe had made some interesting progress by the time India explorers finally reached the shores of Spain and Northern Isles (OCC Britain). Incipient industry such as craft work was found all over Europe. The Isles had everything necessary for industry to develop, all they lacked was cohesion. The lack of a strong ruler kept the Europeans from developing properly. Their strange religion Christianity also made progress as well as basic sanitation taboo. That certainly did not help them any.
 
(OOC: Surely for this to work, One single Indian state would have to have held Europe, whilst India remains divided, you guys are talking about a united India.)
 
Their strange religion Christianity also made progress as well as basic sanitation taboo. That certainly did not help them any.

I think Christianioty is getting too much of a bad rap. The whole association with poverty, traditionalism and identity politics is as much the creation of colonial rule as a genuine heritage. Look at the Nasrani and the Nestorians for examples how Christianity can unfold in a developed society.

Research is still limited and usually published in fairly obscure languages, but if you can get your hands on any of the books on European history that came out in recent years, do. it's a worthwhile read, and it demolishes the colonial myth quite satisfactorily. I mean, I'm not a friend of the young 'Christian' weirdniks that claim white is beautiful and Europe the real heart of civilisation, but there were some very encouraging and interesting developments at the time. Had you heard about the rex inclitus doctrine for example? Rexinclitans believed that the king was sovereign in his realm, answerable only to the Gods - well, that would be Dieu in their case - which sounds a lot like Raj to me. Maybe we could go somewhere with this. And a lot of Christian sadhus regarded education quite highly. If they had had more effective means of communication, they could have kicked off something interesting. Europe already had largely copied the madrassa system and offered higher education in several places.
 
(OOC: Surely for this to work, One single Indian state would have to have held Europe, whilst India remains divided, you guys are talking about a united India.)

<Sri Lanka obviously :p
Also Europe would need to have something worthwhile....>
 
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