After the English Civil War the faith in the House of Stuart by the people was shattered and after the death of Oliver Cromwell and the defeat of Charles II's invasion, the Republican form of government was cemented under the Council of State. However, lets say Charles II wins and the monarchy is restored in the Commonwealth. How does this go over with the people? How would history look back on the Deposition and Civil War?
DBWI: Restoration in the Commonwealth?
- Thread starter ThatOneGuy
- Start date
Cromwell may not be the shining example of Republican virtues but he's certainly not the cartoon villian you want him to be either.
His Irish campaign wasn't nearly so terrible as the Irish nationalist party would have you believe, and most of the horrible things that did happen weren't because of Cromwell's orders. Not to say he was squeak-y clean either, he let most of the commanders that did them off the hook, but his successors in the council of state treated Ireland more harshly than he himself did.
And of course once the military Grandees fell out and proper civilian leadership was established in the council, the harsh treatment of irish catholics were dialed back.
Gian
Banned
...only to be couped by those same hardliners who went through a succession of like-minded Lord Protectors up until 1848 of all years. Predictably, they redialed back the persecution of the Irish and even turned it up to 12. In fact, I'll go further and say that I'm still surprised that Ireland even has a nationalist party to begin with, since the island is now heavily English Protestant.
And after the Commonwealth retained control of New England, they invaded New France (or rather New Britain and Oliveria*) and expelled the entire French Catholic population (slaughtering anyone who remained and/or refused to convert; and yes, those Grandees and the Lord Protectors that succeeded them were the Jaysh ad-Din¹ of their heyday). The fact that Louisiana and Texas, in addition to being the main centers of French culture in North America, are one of the most loyal to the Stuart Emperors of Maryland is a testament to their treatment under the Commonwealth.
*Acadia/Nova Scotia and Quebec respectively.
¹An extremist Islamic terror group that operates throughout the Middle East. This world's equivalent of Daesh/Islamic State.
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Gian
Banned
And by the way @piratedude, before you start saying that the atrocities weren't that bad, consider that Ireland lost some 75% of their pre-Commonwealth population (with the potato famine, which occurred in the final days of the Dominate claiming another 10%) while Oliveria and New Britain are entirely anglophone, with small percentages of First Nation and immigrants speaking their own languages.* Then consider the fact that many Louisianais consider the 24th of June (the Commonwealth invasion happened on St. John the Baptist Day of all days) as a day of mourning over their lost homeland.
*mostly from other parts of the world where the Commonwealth colonized (ie India and Subsaharan Africa), as well as other Protestant nations (which New England upon independence prioritized migration from)
*mostly from other parts of the world where the Commonwealth colonized (ie India and Subsaharan Africa), as well as other Protestant nations (which New England upon independence prioritized migration from)
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OOC: would that really happen or are you trying to indulge some genocidal anti-Irish/anti-Catholic fantasy?
I can certainly see how a continuing Protectorate would be less stable but genocide?
And it doesn't leave much room to expand this DBWI idea.
There's a lot to unpack here, but simply put thats a lot of exaggeration (and some outright lies) that only makes sense if you're squinting at it.
To start, while the position of Lord Protector was abolished in the aftermath of of the Great Chartist Strike of '48 in favor of the popularly elected tri-consulate (among other reforms), the last real military grandee to hold the position was in 1803, and though some would remain in the council of state for a few decades it was a shell of itself.
And neither was the Commonwealth as uniformly and rabidly anti-catholic as you so desperately want to paint them to fit your narrative. There were three distinct periods of anti-catholicism; the first round came after the last Stuart attempt at restoration by "king" James via Ireland, which was the harshest in terms of people directly killed by the State and saw catholics explicitly excluded from the laws protecting religious freedom;
the second was after they had wrestled control of New France. Yes, lots of catholics fled or were expelled, but only a few were actually killed in that period, you can't just take the casualties from the actual battles fought with france to obtain the land and say that thats bloody French-catholic repression;
And the third, after Great '48, was less anti-catholic and more anti-nationalist given that full religious freedom was one of the reforms that was pushed through, it just happened that the majority of the nationalists that tried to use the opportunity to break away from the commonwealth were catholics.
And i hate whataboutism, but i cant help that point out that the stuart descended Emperors of Columbia did their fair share to whipe out native culture as well as being the last ones in the new world to abolish slavery.
I don't know what propaganda reel you got your stats from for the depopulation of Ireland from but they're almost hilariously wrong. The two biggest cities in ireland may have lost 3/4ths of their population but certainly not the whole damn island. On average the population grew in ireland for most if the time, though you are right that the mismanagement of the potato famine killed 10% and drove another 15% to immigrate.
And "heavily english protestant" is debatable just because a few chunks are solidly protestant doesn't mean most of Ireland is protestant, and the INP specifically ignores religious differences allowing them wider appeal than their more sectarian rivals
Jeez, do we have to have a flamewar about Ireland every Cromwell/Commonwealth thread? I mean, the three topics you never post about are the Iranian Genocide, Ireland-Britain, and My Adorable Donkey for a reason, but this is ridiculous! This was, what, two posts into the thread that it started? You never see this kind of ethnonationalist dickwaving with stuff like the Bohemian Nationalists in the Holy German Empire,or with the Dravidians and the Mughals. We should stop posting about this before Swelion bans someone.
Anyway, I'd imagine that England and France would be allies, unlike the mortal enemies that they were right up until the Global War; hell, the Commonwealth even allied with the Habsburgs against the French multiple times. Charles II owed so much to Louis XIV, though, that he'd pretty much have to start an alliance and I don't see that changing in the absence of something else quite drastic.
Anyway, I'd imagine that England and France would be allies, unlike the mortal enemies that they were right up until the Global War; hell, the Commonwealth even allied with the Habsburgs against the French multiple times. Charles II owed so much to Louis XIV, though, that he'd pretty much have to start an alliance and I don't see that changing in the absence of something else quite drastic.
I mean, how could there be? The Arabian Empire's autonomous province of Israel is a beacon of multiculturalism and coexistence between Jews, Christians, and Muslims.