DBWI Qing destroy the Ming

1618 a date that created the chinese divide.


The Machu forces of the north invaded the south with the aid of a traitor. Depending on who you ask the Qing were a force of tradition trying to demolish the decadent Ming, or were barbarians trying to destroy one of the shinning lights of humanity. They took the north but in spite of their best efforts the Ming simply would not die. Bad weather, accidents, good tactics, loyalist rebellions always kept the Ming in the game but they were never able to gather up the needed strength to conquer the north.

Its been close to 400 years since the Qing invasion, and the two became archenemies. The North became authoritarian and milataristic and the south evolved into a democracy. The Qing fell with their facist allies and became the communist hell hole it is today. The Ming died with the last emperor who helped the peaceful transition to a democratic south.

East Asia has been defined by this contest between the Qing, and the Ming and their successor states. North against South. Dictatorship vrs Democracy, but there were plenty of times where the Ming could have fallen where the south could have been conqured.

What would our world look like if the Qing had won a final victory over their mortal enemy?
 
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If the Manchu had conquered the Ming, this new dynasty probably would isolate itself to western influence, perceiving them as a threat to their domain because like them are foreign to China and might fear that the Han would prefer them.
 
OOC:There's no way in hell the Ming Dynasty would take the symbol of a phoenix.The Phoenix is the symbol of the empress while the dragon had long been the symbol of the emperor.And why would the Manchus overrun China in 1618?
 
OOC:There's no way in hell the Ming Dynasty would take the symbol of a phoenix.The Phoenix is the symbol of the empress while the dragon had long been the symbol of the emperor.And why would the Manchus overrun China in 1618?

OCC you could have it as the OP thinking that the phenix symbol was always the symbol of the ming and not realizing that they changed sybols after the last Ming Emperior died out of respect for him. Or cultural drift over a 300 year period, and of course 1618 just being the very very early start of the crisis. OCC
 
OCC you could have it as the OP thinking that the phenix symbol was always the symbol of the ming and not realizing that they changed sybols after the last Ming Emperior died out of respect for him. Or cultural drift over a 300 year period, and of course 1618 just being the very very early start of the crisis. OCC
OCC:The dragon has been the symbol of the Son of Heaven for over a thousand years.There's no way there's gonna be any change to that because of barbarians and adopt the symbol of the empress instead.It's ridiculous for them to do so.Also,the symbol of the Ming Dynasty seemed to have been a moon within a sun(which is of course unofficial,but it's use seemed to be pretty widespread within the public). I can totally see this flag getting adopted officially instead however.

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The problem is that after the Ming Fell, the Mandate of Heaven was lost, for both the Ming and the Qing. All Philosophers at the time knew this, simply agreeing that it was best to back the Ming over the Qing.

This radically change the psyche of our times - it is why we refer to the Mandate of the People, and that led to Southern Democracy, and its overwhelming overseas foreign policy.

Without this change, and a Qing that controls all of China, I think overall everyone would be poorer - the country itself would still be ~30% of the world economy, but taking into account that Ming was 34% on its own after the trade reforms, this is a massive step down.

The North might be more populated, since there wouldn't be the vast migrations that fled southwards, or the rebels who fled south after defeat. There are huge numbers of towns today that were founded at that time.
 
Can you guys explain why the north still calls itself china, and why the south still calls itself china?

The two countries have been split for over 300 years now, they don't even speak the same language, the north speaks manderan, the south speaks Cantonese. Their writting systems are different, their governments coulden't be any more different with the north being an anthoritarian hell hole and the south one of the richest democracies in the world. Their cultures are different with the south being a cultural giant and the north being willing to kill men who have a hair style outside the five acceptable hair cuts....

Isn't it time to just accept that this is a perminant thing? Why do you still have people calling for unity even today?
 
The two countries have been split for over 300 years now, they don't even speak the same language, the north speaks Mandarin, the south speaks Cantonese. Their writting systems are different, their governments coulden't be any more different with the north being an anthoritarian hell hole and the south one of the richest democracies in the world. Their cultures are different with the south being a cultural giant and the north being willing to kill men who have a hair style outside the five acceptable hair cuts....
Wait a second, you actually confused Cantonese with Kangwainese[1], the language of the capital Nanking and the surrounding provinces of Hubei, Anhui and Kangsu[2]. Kangwainese is the only northern Chinese language who kept the checked tone (入聲, ru sheng) and a lot of its vocabulary retained its Middle Chinese form, much like Southern Chinese languages like Hokkien, Cantonese and Hakka.




NOTES:
[1] OOC: Jianghuai Mandarin
[2] OOC: central Jiangsu in OTL; the area south of Yangtze, Shanghai included, belonged to Zhejiang ITTL.
 
Wait a second, you actually confused Cantonese with Kangwainese[1], the language of the capital Nanking and the surrounding provinces of Hubei, Anhui and Kangsu[2]. Kangwainese is the only northern Chinese language who kept the checked tone (入聲, ru sheng) and a lot of its vocabulary retained its Middle Chinese form, much like Southern Chinese languages like Hokkien, Cantonese and Hakka.




NOTES:
[1] OOC: Jianghuai Mandarin
[2] OOC: central Jiangsu in OTL; the area south of Yangtze, Shanghai included, belonged to Zhejiang ITTL.

sorry about that, its hard to keep all the dialects strait though, that said why are there people who still want to unite the china's?

It would take at least a hundred years to undo all the damage the Qing and then the comunists did to the north if the south was in charge, and the south's had democracy for over a hundred years their not going to meekly take the kind of authoritarianism thats standard up north. The two have loathed each other for centuries, so why not just accept a perminant split?
 
sorry about that, its hard to keep all the dialects strait though, that said why are there people who still want to unite the china's?
It's a fetish for everyone in AH world that China would be reunited after years, or rather centuries, of division.
Maybe the people never studied thoroughly the geography and culture of China and Kingchu[1].




NOTE:
[1] OOC: Yup, I chose Kingchu or Chuguo (楚國) for Ming southern China.
 
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