DBWI: Pro-Israel US

JoeMulk

Banned
With all the talk in the news lately about Israel threatening to attack Iran's nuclear sites and the Iranian government demanding US protection I've been wondering; how would mideast politics be different is the US had better relations with Israel and hostile relations with the rest of the mideast?
 
Hard to say, Israel was always a very left wing country from the start, which made it a very sensible mid-East ally for the USSR, the traditionalist conservative Arab Monarchies of Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq and the northern Arab Republics seem made to fit neatly into the US camp, American Jews have always been very supportive of Israel, but they're only about 2.5% of the US's population, and it's not like most of them live in any swing states or anything (New York and New Jersey being pretty much 100% locked up for the Democrats)

I guess if the US was a backer of Israel the Monarchies of the middle east might be gone, or maybe the US would have managed to push Israel to pull back out of some of the Arab lands it controls, I wonder what Egypt would look like if it still had the Suez...
 

d32123

Banned
Honestly, this is pretty much impossible.

Zionism is, by its very nature, an evil and genocidal ideology. I could never imagine the United States supporting such a murderous, human rights violating state, ever, even if it was advantageous geopolitically.

And it wouldn't even be advantageous geopolitically. How the hell would we get any oil if we supported Israel against our major allies in the Middle East, considering that they supply us with the majority of our oil? Where do you think we'd get our oil? I heard they've found some way of producing oil from tar sands in Canada. Maybe from there? I don't know.

It really comes down to the fact that Israel cannot exist without Zionism, and the United States cannot support Zionism. Therefore, the United States can never be pro-Israel.
 
Hard to say, Israel was always a very left wing country from the start, which made it a very sensible mid-East ally for the USSR, the traditionalist conservative Arab Monarchies of Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq and the northern Arab Republics seem made to fit neatly into the US camp, American Jews have always been very supportive of Israel, but they're only about 2.5% of the US's population, and it's not like most of them live in any swing states or anything (New York and New Jersey being pretty much 100% locked up for the Democrats)

I guess if the US was a backer of Israel the Monarchies of the middle east might be gone, or maybe the US would have managed to push Israel to pull back out of some of the Arab lands it controls, I wonder what Egypt would look like if it still had the Suez...

TBH, I've always been a supporter of Israel thanks to the fact that many of the Arab countries have been mostly run by rightist fascist dictators for the better part of 50 years now, royal or not(with the exception of Lebanon and Syria since 1976). Remember those 100,000 so-called 'enemies of the state', mainly Jews, Druze, and Christians who were disappeared by the al-Zarqawi regime in Jordan back in the late '70s?

@d32123: Israel? Genocidal? Oh puh-leeze. If you want to talk about genocide perhaps you should be reminded of what the King of Iraq ordered done to the Kurds in the late '60s. 165,000 people murdered, and all just because of their ethnic background. For shame. :mad:
 

d32123

Banned
@d32123: Israel? Genocidal? Oh puh-leeze. If you want to talk about genocide perhaps you should be reminded of what the King of Iraq ordered done to the Kurds in the late '60s. 165,000 people murdered, and all just because of their ethnic background. For shame. :mad:

That's the stuff of conspiracy theorists. I'm pretty sure we have a forum rule that says conspiracy theories are instaban territory. The Kurdish Genocide is a Soviet myth propagated by communists to besmirch the good name of our allies. Shame on you for bringing that stuff in here.

Not to mention denying a REAL genocide. Denying that Israel routinely massacres freedom fighters in occupied Arab territory is the same as denying the Holocaust.

You're clearly just a Soviet troll.
 
It's interesting how Israel has developed. While the Soviet has modernized with worker based economics after their surprising response to Hungary, Israel has stayed the same old command economic hellhole. I mean, even China and East Germany have modernized into utilizing worker councils instead of command economics, but still not Israel, which is a shame.

With that in mind, wonder what everyone thinks of the Soviets landing a man on Mars now. Sure, we did a year earlier, but it shows the Space Race is still on, what with the dual colonies on the Moon and all of that.
 

Unterkopf

Banned
Honestly, Israel was destined to be a nasty thorn in someone's backside from the start. Against all reason, we carve a little slice out of Palestine for them, and they thank us by hopping right into the Soviet camp. Not to mention they took the Suez with them.

Zionism has degenerated from a dream of the Jewish people to an excuse to use harsh measures against their Arab neighbors for the sake of Lebensraum. Ironic, isn't it?

(Although, sometimes I get a perverse sort of chuckle when I hear Israel doing something in the news, if only because I love to see the USSR get badmouthed over their red-headed stepchild of an ally.)
 
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This may be blunt; but there's no oil in Israel. Why would the US support them if it would mean pissing off the Egyptians and pretty much the entire Arab world? That would only have driven them into the arms of the Soviets. I can sympathize with the Israelis being surrounded by enemies but realpolitik is realpolitik.
 
Don't Know, Don't Care

It's interesting how Israel has developed. While the Soviet has modernized with worker based economics after their surprising response to Hungary, Israel has stayed the same old command economic hellhole. I mean, even China and East Germany have modernized into utilizing worker councils instead of command economics, but still not Israel, which is a shame.

For a nation of its size and being surrounded by well funded and armed to the teeth would have time to waste with negotiations at the whim of unions? They seem to do quite nicely designing heavily modified hardware such as the AK-47 based Galil, Soviet tank chassis based Achzarit APC and Kfir (a real intelligence SNAFU) for France to African nations. Not to mention how much they have done to fix the infrastructure of places colonialism left for dead.

With that in mind, wonder what everyone thinks of the Soviets landing a man on Mars now. Sure, we did a year earlier, but it shows the Space Race is still on, what with the dual colonies on the Moon and all of that.

You should be thanking Israeli expertise in making the desert bloom in the Sinai and engineering livable places in such arid climates for the current Lunar as well as possible Martian bases in the future being such a success.;)

I can sympathize with the Israelis being surrounded by enemies but realpolitik is realpolitik.

I wonder how it makes you and others feel shaming our greatest generation by siding with those who clearly sympathized with the Nazis back in WWII?:mad:

I don't care how many times the FBI looks into my activities or how the rest of Uncle Sam thinks I'll be still buying bonds along with other forms of support for Medinat Yisrael. Unless duly noted on committing something truly atrocious on an unarmed populous, one person's villain is always another's hero.
 
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With all the talk in the news lately about Israel threatening to attack Iran's nuclear sites and the Iranian government demanding US protection I've been wondering; how would mideast politics be different is the US had better relations with Israel and hostile relations with the rest of the mideast?

Hard to say, the main problem with a Pro-Israel USA (if it isn't already) is the lack of incentives. There's nothing Israel offers that can't be substituted whereas some middle east countries have oil, gas, and strategic locations (Suez, Hormuz strait) that can't be substituted.

Let's start at say... 1948, a bit of US support can really help out here. I suppose you can get some nice lobbying from the rich and influential Jewish-Americans. The traditional mutual expulsion of Arabs/Jews. It's more likely for Israel to gain more land, not much more than OTL without expelling densely populated areas, and if America's in it's doubtful even if large scale expulsion's possible.

Israel would have more backing for occupying the Suez canal, but while I don't see the Soviets going to war over it with the Hungarian crisis at hand I really can't see the Americans opposing the Hungarian crisis while it's supporting an Israeli offensive. I can't really see the Americans supporting the imperial ambitions of the UK, France, and Israel at the expense of international goodwill. I suppose the best that can happen is less diplomatic/financial pressure from America. The end can either be an unlikely occupation of the Suez Canal with Nasser expelled from power or OTL terms forcing Israel, France & the UK to back off.

In the case of a unlikely occupation the aggressor would suffer alot, they were already under an OTL Saudi oil embargo in sync with an OTL refusal by most neutral nations to make up for the oil deficit. France & the UK will have to opt out eventually, unless they wish to cripple their oil deficient economies and their chances of re-election. Israel may stay on longer but lacking resupply from the world and with the Hungarian revolting ending in late 56 the Soviet Union will be free to support Arab clients. Either way the Suez Crisis ends more or less like OTL except with the possibility of a more Soviet oriented Middle-East (Obviously leaving out OTL American clients like Iran ).

While Nasser may or may not be removed from power by now the Six-day war will go on more or less as OTL. I can't imagine an domestically chosen Egyptian regime to be friendly towards the Israeli. The land claims with be more or less OTL, the Israelis cannot hold land across the Suez and at most push a bit further into Syria. Any land Israel takes will be populated with a hostile populace, meaning either expulsion or long-term insurgency. With a much more devastating defeat in the Six-day war the Syrian and Egyptian may reform their armies more efficiently than OTL.

Now the Yom Kippur War is really up in the air, while there wouldn't be mass expulsions if the Arab coalition won there might be limited expulsions from former Egyptian/Syrian land. At least that's the most the United States will accept anyways.

OPEC would also be a lot more hostile to America even despite their need of US money.
 
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