DBWI: Pragmatist or Reformist China in 1980s

[KingOnTheEdge]

Anyway, Africa is once again point of contentions between the three blocks. US accusing Soviet to support tyrannical dictators and Europe to engage in Neocolonialism, Soviet accusing US to puppetize African countries through economic means and Europe to engage in Neocolonialism, Europe... you know the drill there...

In fairness, the NEOcolonialism is a lot more consensual than the old school method. Granted, there's still some shady stuff, but places like Nigeria are getting a lot out of the commonwealth this time at least. Unlike Soviet Aligned Africa.

Granted, Britain's occupation of the Suez has led to tensions between them and the arab world for decades, but neither Britain nor Egypt want a war with each other. Unlike Madagascar, where South Africa has demanded territorial concessions, but we all know SA is more of an actual colony than a real member of the commonwealth

 

[Frank Hart]

In fairness, the NEOcolonialism is a lot more consensual than the old school method. Granted, there's still some shady stuff, but places like Nigeria are getting a lot out of the commonwealth this time at least. Unlike Soviet Aligned Africa.

Granted, Britain's occupation of the Suez has led to tensions between them and the arab world for decades, but neither Britain nor Egypt want a war with each other. Unlike Madagascar, where South Africa has demanded territorial concessions, but we all know SA is more of an actual colony than a real member of the commonwealth

South Africa, huh? I know that Apartheid eventually blew up in their faces, with Transkei (after absorbing Ciskei, KwaXhosa), KwaZulu, Bophuthatswana, Lebowa, and Venda managing to get some legitimate recognition, and expanded further into SA. Lesotho and Swaziland also managed to do so.

South Africa's supposed ambitious plans in Madagascar, is safe to say, frivolous. They couldn't even hold themselves together.

An exiled Nelson Mandela becoming the President of Transkei in 1998, and leading the country to annex of Ciskei and East London in 2002, is probably among the largest ironies that could happen there.

 

[KingOnTheEdge]

South Africa, huh? I know that Apartheid eventually blew up in their faces, with Transkei (after absorbing Ciskei, KwaXhosa), KwaZulu, Bophuthatswana, Lebowa, and Venda managing to get some legitimate recognition, and expanded further into SA. Lesotho and Swaziland also managed to do so.

South Africa's supposed ambitious plans in Madagascar, is safe to say, frivolous. They couldn't even hold themselves together.

An exiled Nelson Mandela becoming the President of Transkei in 1998, and leading the country to annex of Ciskei and East London in 2002, is probably among the largest ironies that could happen there.

Yah, the Cape Revolutions are why SA is so reliant on Britain. and i would be willing to bet that Britain/South Africa wants it to ensure they have a base in the area to station the better troops. Britain hasn't been secretive about their desires to reannex the land, especially as Imperial Pan-Nationalism rises.

 

[free115]

As much as London and Washington like to grumble about the stepping on each other toes. (OCC: Are we seriously going with an Imperial Federation post 1980s? Kinda pushing plausibility isn't it?) Both powers aren't really ideologically opposed to one another, the fact that the USSR is practically capitalist just with a paint of red the Tripolar System is a lot more stable.

It's funny how Commonwealth or American aligned nations in the ASEAN distrust Tokyo and Soul more then Washington and London(let's be honest here most decision are made in New Delhi). Distrust of Japan makes sense considering WW2 but the formation of Greater Korea and the subsequent "pacification" of Manchuria spooked South East Asia.

 

[KingOnTheEdge]

As much as London and Washington like to grumble about the stepping on each other toes. (OCC: Are we seriously going with an Imperial Federation post 1980s? Kinda pushing plausibility isn't it?) Both powers aren't really ideologically opposed to one another, the fact that the USSR is practically capitalist just with a paint of red the Tripolar System is a lot more stable.

It's funny how Commonwealth or American aligned nations in the ASEAN distrust Tokyo and Soul more then Washington and London(let's be honest here most decision are made in New Delhi). Distrust of Japan makes sense considering WW2 but the formation of Greater Korea and the subsequent "pacification" of Manchuria spooked South East Asia.

ooc: not quite federation yet. more like the commonwealth replaced the EU for britain and there is some push for federation. And honestly the idea of the PRC collapsing in the 70s seems a bit mad to me.

 

[Frank Hart]

ooc: And honestly the idea of the PRC collapsing in the 70s seems a bit mad to me.

OOC: technically China only began collapsing in the 80s, though history diverged in the 70s.

 

[raffaele gaggioli]

I mean if the PRC was still around, we would at least know what happened to Mao's body.
I know it is not an important question, but the fact that in the middle of the civil war somedody took his time for stealing a body still creeps me out

 

[Dolan]

I mean if the PRC was still around, we would at least know what happened to Mao's body.
I know it is not an important question, but the fact that in the middle of the civil war somedody took his time for stealing a body still creeps me out

The latest rumor is said Mao's body was embalmed and mummified by his loyal followers, only to have it being lost to Korean "peacekeepers" and was put on Park Chung Hee's Seoul Mansion for some sort of macabre trophy.

Remember that Presidents Kim Jong Nam and Park Geun Hye always skirting about the issue if they kept Mao's body as a circus attraction, while Kim Jong Il has been recorded off-script to say something about "Mao didn't deserve this" and "I'm sorry comrade Mao" before he passed away in 2013

 

[Frank Hart]

I mean if the PRC was still around, we would at least know what happened to Mao's body.
I know it is not an important question, but the fact that in the middle of the civil war somedody took his time for stealing a body still creeps me out

Rumour had it that the body was either cremated by the Koreans, or was secretly moved to Shaoshan, Hunan, Huguang and buried there as a nobody.

Mao isn't really held at high regard these days. Historical revisionism placed him as better than Hitler, Tojo, or Leopold II of Belgium, but he isn't revered outside the Huguang Democratic Republic.

 

[Frank Hart]

The latest rumor is said Mao's body was embalmed and mummified by his loyal followers, only to have it being lost to Korean "peacekeepers" and was put on Park Chung Hee's Seoul Mansion for some sort of macabre trophy.

Remember that Presidents Kim Jong Nam and Park Geun Hye always skirting about the issue if they kept Mao's body as a circus attraction, while Kim Jong Il has been recorded off-script to say something about "Mao didn't deserve this" and "I'm sorry comrade Mao" before he passed away in 2013

That was horrific. People from Huguang or Korea, however would deny that sort of thing ever existing or happening.

Speaking of which, these days Korea's presidential elections no longer have 100% voting for Park or Kim, but rather in the 80-85% range. Still a sham though, since local and parliamentary elections indicate that the actual support is around 60-70%.

 

[raffaele gaggioli]

Mao isn't really held at high regard these days. Historical revisionism placed him as better than Hitler, Tojo, or Leopold II of Belgium, but he isn't revered

Considering how many people died during his "brilliant" invasion of Myanmar, this is hardly a surprise.

 

[Frank Hart]

Considering how many people died during his "brilliant" invasion of Myanmar, this is hardly a surprise.

To be fair, Burma / Myanmar has always been shit, even without the Chinese invasion. The Rohingya and Kokang Genocides in the early 2000s (Aung San Suu Kyi did not condemn on that even though she was in exile, by the way) earned it pariah status, an invasion from Bangladesh and the Yunnan-Kweichow Confederation, in addition to the equivalent of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions by all three major blocs, the Arab League, ASEAN, all Chinese successor states, Switzerland, Korea, Manchuria, Japan, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Israel.

Spoiler: OOC note

Yunnan-Kweichow controls most of these two provinces, with small sections under Szechuan and Canton
Szechuan is Sichuan sans Tibetan areas (but including Kangding City), plus Chongqing and western Hubei

 

[raffaele gaggioli]

To be fair, Burma / Myanmar has always been shit, even without the Chinese invasion.

Yeah, but i doubt the chinese nuking of Naypydaw helped.

Iran, Pakistan, and Israel.

By the way i wonder how their situation would be different if the PRC was still around

 

[Frank Hart]

Yeah, but i doubt the chinese nuking of Naypydaw helped.

Well, there were three nukes dropped on Myanmar that day. Yangon, Naypyidaw, and Mandalay all got 50 kilotons of Instant Sunshine™ over a time span of two hours on 16th May, 2006, on the 50th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution, yet the ruling junta survived. Not a pretty sight, and very much disproportionately done (sure, ethnic Chinese and Rohingya people were persecuted in Myanmar, but was it really necessary?).

 

[raffaele gaggioli]

Well, there were three nukes dropped on Myanmar that day. Yangon, Naypyidaw, and Mandalay all got 50 kilotons of Instant Sunshine™ over a time span of two hours on 16th May, 2006, on the 50th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution, yet the ruling junta survived. Not a pretty sight, and very much disproportionately done (sure, ethnic Chinese and Rohingya people were persecuted in Myanmar, but was it really necessary?).

Of course not. Let's be honest: the peesecution of the minorities was just an excuse used by the various chinese successor states to get rid of a dangerous obstacle for their ambitions in the region

 

[Dolan]

Of course not. Let's be honest: the peesecution of the minorities was just an excuse used by the various chinese successor states to get rid of a dangerous obstacle for their ambitions in the region

Yet it was far too real for the Arakan Muslims. The short-lived State of Rohingya ended up prematurely attacked by Burmese mob, and cause one of the most bitter enmity in the world.

Let's be fair, from Burmese perspective, they was merely sitting on their own land when Mao attacked, then British peacekeepers get in and outright create State of Rohingya out of the blue instead of handing authority back to Government-in-exile or making Democratic elections.

Neocolonialism Divide Et Impera at their finest, aimed to permanently destabilize Burma-Bangladesh region I say.

 

[Frank Hart]

Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions by Iran, Pakistan, and Israel.

By the way i wonder how their situation would be different if the PRC was still around.

For Pakistan? Other than having no space program to attempt screwing India over (and India's space program is still the successful one among the two, mind you), it should be similar. Islamabad-Delhi relations have always been sour since day one.

As to Iran though, nobody expected a Gromyko-Khamenei alliance to be forged in 1984, when one side adheres to state atheism, and the other being the leader of a theocratic republic.

And Israel? Many said that the instability in East Asia, in the 1980s no less, dissuaded them from attempting to annex anything in Palestine other than East Jerusalem. I doubt Palestine would ever get a spot in the United Nations if Israel did not cease it's occupation in 1993.

 

[Frank Hart]

Yet it was far too real for the Arakan Muslims. The short-lived State of Rohingya ended up prematurely attacked by Burmese mob, and cause one of the most bitter enmity in the world.

Let's be fair, from Burmese perspective, they was merely sitting on their own land when Mao attacked, then British peacekeepers get in and outright create State of Rohingya out of the blue instead of handing authority back to Government-in-exile or making Democratic elections.

Neocolonialism Divide Et Impera at their finest, aimed to permanently destabilize Burma-Bangladesh region I say.

Well, not Mao in the second invasion, but his followers in Yunnan. You're right though.

But then again, nowadays Rohingya /Arakan Bengals are having a better life ironically because of the atomic strikes on the capital, capital-to-be, and historical capital of Myanmar. They have their own nation (like much of the northwest, admittedly), a good relationship with Bangladesh, and in some sense with Yunnan-Kweichow. Somehow they're okay with Thailand and Indonesia as well.

Besides, the Divide et Impera strategy didn't work with Bangladesh (too homogeneous to take effect). With Myanmar however, the devastation amplified it's effects.

 

[raffaele gaggioli]

.

As to Iran though, nobody expected an Andropov/Gromyko-Khamenei alliance to be forged in 1984/85, when one side adheres to state atheism, and the other being the leader of a theocratic republic.

Well, i think the alliance was inevitable considering both countries have numerpus reasons to hate Iraq and Saudi Arabia
The only real loser of this alliance is Afghanistan

 

[Frank Hart]

.

Well, i think the alliance was inevitable considering both countries have numerpus reasons to hate Iraq and Saudi Arabia
The only real loser of this alliance is Afghanistan

Ah, yes. The Soviet-Iranian partition of Afghanistan, with Pakistan "revising" its border with them as well, leaving a protectorate based in Kandahar (Kabul is too close to the new border). The Pashtun Afghans hate their neighbors to no end.